Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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mith wrote:I was talking about gains over previous iterations of MP4/25. If they was faster of around 4 seconds over course of the season, we would see much better qualifying times on the same track year by year. I didn't saw anyone qualifying 4 second faster than last year's record.
Indeed. Only Lotus has been able to gain up to a second in something like four races, and that's because they know exactly where their car is bad and the net gains are obviously going to be bigger. Just the raw logic of what's required to gain this 'average' lap time increase shows Whitmarsh's 'estimates' up as total crap. Maybe he's under more pressure than we realise?

To put this into perspective, various teams are naturally having a look at things like Red Bull's exhaust driven diffuser set up. A few teams have estimated that to be worth perhaps three or four tenths alone, so it's an area ripe for development assuming teams can start now and move it along at a fair pace. Given that this will take tens of millions in investment and probably took Red Bull months of research and development work, according to Martin Whitmarsh we're supposed to believe that McLaren is gaining the equivalent of a Red Bull exhaust diffuser's worth of time in additional development per each successive race. :roll: Errrrr, no.

Gaining a couple of tenths over a handful of races through development is considered good going at the front, however they happen to measure that average lap time. Additionally, there is no tyre war now remember.

Remote_Access
Remote_Access
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Joined: 19 Apr 2010, 09:51

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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segedunum wrote:
dannyteasdale wrote:Webber -

36 1:30.511
37 1:30.334
38 1:30.406
39 1:30.626
40 1:35.317

Vettel -

36 1:30.638
37 1:30.181
38 1:30.190

39 1:30.611
40 N/A as crashed this lap.

Hamilton -

36 1:30.524
37 1:30.425
38 1:30.357
39 1:30.522
40 1:30.865

Button (Just for good measure) -

36 1:30.831
37 1:30.382
38 1:30.251
39 1:30.369
40 1:31.467

I suggest you study the above before you start giving the lip on so called 'facts'.
Thanks for the lap times. I couldn't get to this info yesterday, but it's the same thing Ted Kravitz had on the BBC. I've highlighted the two laps of note but I notice you don't post anything before lap 37 to compare so I posted lap 36 for completeness in italics. :wink:
Its clear Webber had slowed down - or possibly turned the engine down, not so much of a stupid idea now eh? - and Vettel was lapping consistently in the 1.30's.
Webber didn't slow down. Take a look at Vettel's 1:30.1s. They were his fastest laps in the race. If you look at the preceding lap(s) he did you'll find they're around a half a second slower than those two he pulled out of the bag and on a par with Hamilton and Webber with the status quo being maintained. Ted Kravitz pointed out the very same thing on the BBC. Lap 39 was where Vettel had caught up to him and time was naturally lost. It wasn't Webber going slower it was the few tenths Vettel was pulling out relative to others and where he had been before.
After watching the replays - I'd have said it took Webber (roughly) on a 3 second detour on lap 40 which still means he was 2 secs slower on that lap, if someone is lapping 2 secs faster they are bound to catch a car with only a 1 sec gap no?
I don't see the relevance of whatever this means. What happened on lap 40 is irrelevant to where Vettel had got his speed from prior.
As I said - I like stats, they make the facts.
Indeed.
Plus I'm now not going to say anymore on this as it should be in the Turkey GP discussion - not the Mclaren discussion.
Whilst an interesting detour it's interesting only insofar as people were trying to ascertain how close to the Red Bull McLaren really were in terms of maximum pace. The lap times establish that Vettel was able to speed up, not the reverse. I don't like to see people hide things behind figures though. :wink:
The maccas were holding onto their fuel as well. The track was grippier than expected so all the teams were using more fuel than anticipated. I guess this was relatively quickly discovered by the teams because they were all on very tight fuel rations and the maccas had been on conservation orders for some amount of time.

Furthermore, there is the question of making tyres last. So all drivers are probably generally running a little bit slower than they have to. What this means is that there's a little in reserve for the sake of endurance.

In combination it is probably not worth reading too much into two laps, if you're looking at raw race pace. Seb was probably using the pace he had in reserve.

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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I fail to see how all this is relevant with the development of the MP4-25
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King Six
King Six
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Joined: 27 May 2008, 16:52
Location: London, England

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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The car forums have gone back to their old self once again. I don't even know where to look these days to see the on going developments of the cars throughout the season anymore. All the new front wings and such

Especially since the MP4-25 is easily one of the cars that's being worked on the most as the season progresses

You'd think the thread/forums would deliver but it's rather awful.

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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King Six wrote:The car forums have gone back to their old self once again. I don't even know where to look these days to see the on going developments of the cars throughout the season anymore. All the new front wings and such

Especially since the MP4-25 is easily one of the cars that's being worked on the most as the season progresses

You'd think the thread/forums would deliver but it's rather awful.
I agree completely. I blame a couple of things for this .. first, not much in the way of technical pics this year so it's difficult to speculate as to the changes. The teams are doing a very thorough job of keeping everything under wraps.

Second, the reluctance of people to start new threads about new but related subjects. It seems that half the time you start a new thread someone comes on complaining about it, like the entire site should be just nuts and bolts tech. That would be nice, and my favorite subject, but you wouldn't have much to talk about this this year if we just focused on tech because we don't get much info to work with this year.

King Six
King Six
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Joined: 27 May 2008, 16:52
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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I'm trying to just do it myself, look at images of the cars and see if I can notice any changes. ScarbsF1 does some good posts and I follow his blog. I remember someone on here called Bar555 or something used to be very good at spotting and keeping us informed of car developments and he even had his own blog, but I'm not sure where he is now and his blog has gone :(

Where's the best place for some good quality F1 images? I'm guessing gpupdate or something?

dannyteasdale
dannyteasdale
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Joined: 31 May 2010, 09:19
Location: Leeds, UK

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Im with you on this one King Six.

It was the pure enjoyment of comparing the photos which has kept me coming back to this site.

Where have the good times gone :(

BreezyRacer
BreezyRacer
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Joined: 04 Nov 2006, 00:31

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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King Six wrote:I'm trying to just do it myself, look at images of the cars and see if I can notice any changes. ScarbsF1 does some good posts and I follow his blog. I remember someone on here called Bar555 or something used to be very good at spotting and keeping us informed of car developments and he even had his own blog, but I'm not sure where he is now and his blog has gone :(

Where's the best place for some good quality F1 images? I'm guessing gpupdate or something?
I check a lot of sites for pics .. gpupdate, F1fanatic, autosport, pitpass, and a variety of blogs .. even some twitter accounts though they mostly just annoy me. Twitter sucks so hard ..

There's only a few photographers to cover a race weekend and they are all pretty much about doing pics on overall cars and drivers. It seems they are now schooled in showing us only what the teams want us to see such as the RB blown wing this weekend .. we got lots of pics on that but no pics on the last minute parts that went on the cars before qually, for instance.

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Blackout
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Joined: 09 Feb 2010, 04:12

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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King Six wrote:I'm trying to just do it myself, look at images of the cars and see if I can notice any changes. ScarbsF1 does some good posts and I follow his blog. I remember someone on here called Bar555 or something used to be very good at spotting and keeping us informed of car developments and he even had his own blog, but I'm not sure where he is now and his blog has gone :(Where's the best place for some good quality F1 images? I'm guessing gpupdate or something?
You can browse my posts :mrgreen:

search.php?author_id=9385&sr=posts

bar555
bar555
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Joined: 08 Aug 2007, 18:13
Location: Greece - Athens

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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King Six wrote:I'm trying to just do it myself, look at images of the cars and see if I can notice any changes. ScarbsF1 does some good posts and I follow his blog. I remember someone on here called Bar555 or something used to be very good at spotting and keeping us informed of car developments and he even had his own blog, but I'm not sure where he is now and his blog has gone :(

Where's the best place for some good quality F1 images? I'm guessing gpupdate or something?
I am still here . I often post updates but for sure less often as i did last year . I am thinking of restarting a new blog also . PM and i would just drop a notice of the starting date for those who are interested .


PS=Thanks for the good words
Future is like walking into past......

Blog : http://formula1techandart.wordpress.com/
Twitter :http://twitter.com/bar555onF1

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mith
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 18:03
Location: Wrocław, Poland

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Yeah, the high quality pictures, comparisons with previous versions and interesting discussions on what all that 'thingies' are there for, was the reason I started to follow this forums. But this year I see very little photos of new bits on the cars - especially for the McLaren. I think they have actually gotten faster and I wonder what they did beside trying few iterations of rear wing. So if you have any interesting photos, please, post them.

My point in previous posts wasn't that Maccas didn't decrease the gap to the Bulls, but that the numbers are unrealistic. So please, don't use my words to start fanboish ying yang. Every team principal is telling press some bs from time to time. It's only natural as that's part of their work.

donskar
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Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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One reason we see fewer pix of developments is the ban on testing. Development now is on computer screen, wind tunnel, and simulator. All invisible to fan and press.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

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mith
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 18:03
Location: Wrocław, Poland

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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donskar wrote:One reason we see fewer pix of developments is the ban on testing. Development now is on computer screen, wind tunnel, and simulator. All invisible to fan and press.
I don't think so. Last year I have seen a lot of good photos here.

jason.parker.86
jason.parker.86
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Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 21:57

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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We also used to get a Race by Race update on the rear and front wing, which appears to have gone!

Ratatouille
Ratatouille
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Joined: 26 Feb 2008, 21:05

Re: Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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With all due respect, I think it is very annoying and unfair that people start complaining about the lack of pictures or technical chat on the various car developments.

After all, WE THE PEOPLE, are the one who make up the content on the forums. If most of us write s**t, then the forums become just that.

I think it is up to us the forum members to make the technical development forums interesting again, and not expect someone else to do it for us. It's a shame BAR555 can no longer post as many pics. as he used to, but why should we expect him to be the only one to do so?

Just some food for thought.