Turkish GP 2010 - Istanbul Park

[myurr]

Unequivocal video evidence should be enough, if a team challenges it.

It shouldn't have to be down to the other teams to police it. The FIA should have known that Red Bulls suspension arms were angled at 20 degrees instead of 5 degrees. What if they set them to 6 or 7 degrees, video evidence wouldn't be enough for that but it's still an unfair advantage for the infringing team.

This sport is supposed to a) be a sport, and b) represent the pinnacle of motor sport, yet we have teams being able to run illegal parts on their cars for the first third of the season and who are only stopped when another team notices the irregularity and complains.

And this is for a part of the car that all can see - just how good a job do you believe the FIA are doing in policing all the parts of the car hidden from view, such as a floor and internals of the car? If you can't trust the FIA over something as simple as measuring the angle of incidence of the suspension arms to within an accuracy of 15 degrees, then how can you put any faith in them to correctly enforce the more difficult things like deflection of the floor under aerodynamic load, or subtly adjustable suspension?

Ps. I'm not singling out Red Bull here, can't blame them for trying their luck although it's a bit rich from a team that has been so vocal criticising others such as McLaren for the F-duct and their diffuser. My gripe is 100% with the FIA for being too inept to even be able to enforce their own rules.

[Richard]

myurr - The competition starts on the drawing board. The principle of what is allowed is anything that is not caught as illegal.

As an aside, what sport does manage 100% scrutiny of every competitor?

[myurr]

myurr - The competition starts on the drawing board. The principle of what is allowed is anything that is not caught as illegal.

I have no problem with that, as I said my gripe is with those overseeing the regulations rather than the team(s) found in breach of them.

As an aside, what sport does manage 100% scrutiny of every competitor?

I don't think we can ask for 100% scrutiny, but we can strive towards it within the bounds of practicality. However the FIA time and again falls well short of that goal.

For example in athletics it's not down to the competitors to grass each other up for jumping the gun or taking drugs - these things are subject to scrutiny from those in charge of the sport.

I would allow that the FIA has a far harder job due to the technical nature of the sport and the complexity of the cars, but it is unacceptable that it takes a third of a season and a complaint from a competitor to notice that the Red Bull car has suspension arms that exceed the 5 degrees angle of incidence rule. It's not like we're talking about a degree or two, we're talking about 15 degrees - 400% of the allowed angle!

[WhiteBlue]

Richard is right. Have a look at the technical report and see what they have to check there. It is amazing. There will always be a self policing aspect to the competition. The FiA tech dept is no stalinist police force with unlimited budget and should not be.

[marcush.]

everyone involved in racing knows : scrutineering is mainly a papers check and safety related items are checked,and car weight ,randomly some bsic checks are done towards rideheights etc.
As far as i know the teams are obliged to check their cars themselves using the FIA rig...and this is done before scrutineering and after each day...

[WhiteBlue]

everyone involved in racing knows : scrutineering is mainly a papers check and safety related items are checked,and car weight ,randomly some bsic checks are done towards rideheights etc

They also do check software of the SECU every race. Last time they did all teams were now on the same version.

[marcush.]

everyone involved in racing knows : scrutineering is mainly a papers check and safety related items are checked,and car weight ,randomly some bsic checks are done towards rideheights etc

They also do check software of the SECU every race. Last time they did all teams were now on the same version.

haha ..it´s always the obvious you miss ....of course electronic checks .no dirty hands ..we can do this .

[WhiteBlue]

everyone involved in racing knows : scrutineering is mainly a papers check and safety related items are checked,and car weight ,randomly some bsic checks are done towards rideheights etc

They also do check software of the SECU every race. Last time they did all teams were now on the same version.

haha ..it´s always the obvious you miss ....of course electronic checks .no dirty hands ..we can do this .

I bet the other teams insist that the FiA makes checks. It would be easy for McLaren as the supplier of the SECU to use an "advanced" trial software. I keep seeing this item in all reports that I read. Turkey was no exception.

[feynman]

Interesting bit of radio traffic available in the F1.com race edit.

> Lewis we need you to save fuel. Both cars are doing the same.

> Jenson's closing in on me you guys.
> Understood Lewis.
> If I back-off, is Jenson going to pass me or not?

[PAUSE]
> No Lewis, no.

In another thread when someone was complaining about Hamilton acting like a spoiled child when told about high brake-wear in Monaco, my counter-argument was that Lewis has in the last two seasons lost confidence in what he is being told by McLaren race-management, and he feels he now has to second guess everything he hears.

That "No Lewis, no" will require explanation, they either lied to him and had no intention of passing the message onto Jenson (fearful of team orders perhaps), or they did, and Jenson ignored it and lied when saying no-one told me anything.

I'd go for the former, they knew how marginal fuel was, both cars finished empty, and the pitwall was happy to say anything to him to try and slow down the pace. If the price of that was to further lose the confidence of a driver, and erode that critical trust, it ultimately could prove to be a very expensive decision.

Fortunately the Hamilton GP2 Turkey overtake muscle-memory kicked-in and quite frankly saved the team's bacon, or it could have ended-up real Red Bull ugly this week.

[Paul Oz]

Fortunately the Hamilton GP2 Turkey overtake muscle-memory kicked-in and quite frankly saved the team's bacon, or it could have ended-up real Red Bull ugly this week.

Agree 100% - Mclaren would have been torn apart from the inside if Jenson had actually finished in front of Lewis after that.... not very clever at all.
Explains Lewis' very subdued celebrations fully IMO - his head must have been all over the place after that.

If you listen to the race highlights at http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html radio traffic is about 3/4 the way thru.... Lewis asks a very precise question.... seemingly the reply was not as accurate.

[DaveKillens]

I gotta tell you guys that this season has been extremely enjoyable for me. Although at times Formula One can be defined as a train, many times we have witnessed hard, close racing and passing. The fortunes of teams have risen and fallen like the tides, and at present there's a huge logjam for the WDC.

First off, congratulations to Lewis Hamilton on his win, and to McLaren and Button for their success. A win in Formula One is incredibly difficult, and no matter the circumstances, the winner has to be respected for it.

I consider it a personal blessing that I am not emotionally attached to any driver or team, because to be honest, I like and respect therm all. And I believe that strong emotional attachments color a person's interpretation of what they witnessed. What did I see? I saw Mclaren closing the gap on Red Bull, to the point where they can pressure them. I saw Vettel, the young, quick, and brave man attempt to push Webber (seasoned, tough, and determined) around, and it backfired. Then, Button took the fight to Hamilton because a win was at stake, and was ordered to back down.

Once again, Kubica was a monster, the guy is nothing but incredible. And his teammate, Petrov is someone I really enjoy watching. It's a shame his race was ruined by the puncture.

A lot has been said about the coming-together of Vettel and Webber, and it involved wheels making serious contact. Fortunately, neither car was launched, and no one was injured. Just a few hours later, two cars did make wheel contact at Indy, and the results were much different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4CCWoF-DCU

Whenever a team orders it's drivers to slow down, it creates problems. The drivers are aggressive, and it's against their nature to go easy when they believe they have the ability to pass the car ahead. So we see the situation where Vettel went after Webber, and Button versus Hamilton. And sadly, I can never forget the circumstances of the 1982 San Marino Grand Prix where Pironi passed Villeneueve at the end of the race, an incident that contributed to the events of May 9, 1982 when Villeneueve died.

Right now, I believe that asking drivers to slow down is like mixing gasoline with fire, you are asking selfish and aggressive people to slow down and play nice with others.

I'm looking forward to Montreal because right now McLaren believe they have the upper hand. And the word is simple... "we pushed them and they cracked". And you know what? That's what happened.

[TunisianF1Fan]

I think the answer Hamilton Got for the pitboard was clear, here is the radio transcript:

Lewis Hamilton: Jenson’s closing in on me you guys.
McLaren: Understood, Lewis.
Lewis Hamilton: If I back off is Jenson going to pass me or not?
McLaren: No Lewis... no.

You can listen to it on the FOM website video here :
http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html

It's even written in subtitles!

Quoting The F1Times :

"It would seem Button saw Hamilton backing off and took the opportunity to claim an extra seven points, going against team orders to save fuel"

http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/01265

So Jenson was starting war doing that, and he knew that if he finished in front it would have torn the team apart, let alone finishing in front while infringing team orders and passing in a dishonest way, profiting from lewis backing off as being told.

I bet Button and Hamilton won't "look" freindly for long!

[Ganxxta]

As far as I remember Button got the order to save fuel after their incident, it was shown like this also in the video on f1.com, so he saw a slow Hamilton and took his chance...
I believe there was a misunderstanding in the Team, they said to Hamilton to back off and that Button wouldn't pass him but they didn't mentioned this to Button
So for me its Team fault not Buttons or Hamiltons.

[Mysticf1]

CONSPIRACY!!

Kinda coincidence that both Redbull and Mclaren have mis-communication issues between their drivers resulting in unexpected overtaking maneuvers... maybe the FIA are undertaking selective radio jamming to increase the show.

please note, this post is extremely tongue in cheek

[TunisianF1Fan]

Ganxxta : Not really, The engineer says to Hamilton : "We need you to save fuel, both cars are doing the same"

After that Lewis says "Lewis is closing on me guys" because he noticed Button wasn't saving, so Button has been told to save before he tried to overtake, i have even read somewhere that a target lap was set for both and that is 1.31, and buttons was setting fast laps. This doesn't smell good at all, either button tempted a treacherous pass, or.. call me a fool but some people in Mclaren might be conspiring against Hamilton. Since Ron left, strange things happen to Lewis, all team errors (except in monaco), tyre change stops are always faster with button.. Best race strategies for button, and when we know that Whitmarsh insisted to bring Button although Dennis and others were agains it..