Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[WhiteBlue]

I have cited the source which printed this story in the German language (AMuS). Michael Schmidt is a very reliable source in F1.

Webber changed from tub 02 to tub 04 for Spain and Vettel continued to use chassis 03 which must have been tested back from China for the first time because during the fly away races they had no opportunity to ultrasound the chassis in the factory. Presumably the crack wasn't very severe at that time that it escaped the test or they only did a visual inspection because at this time Seb did not have any complaints.

In Spain Seb started to go slow with tub 03 but they had a back to back race in Monaco and that time they could not check the chassis. Only after Monaco they did a very thorough check in the factory and found the crack in the front lower wishbone pivot point. They decided to give Vettel the 02 chassis which Webber had discarded as no other new chassis was available. It appears that he will use this in Canada as well. I hope Red Bull will quickly prepare a reserve.

Obviously the issue with the suspension geometry would only become apparent when the wishbone pivot point would move under load. So a normal suspension check would not reveal that problem. Sebastian told the press that with the new chassis he could suddenly feel his car properly again and position it into the corners. I guess if you cannot do this you loose all your confidence and yours speed.

I am confident that from Canada Seb will be the faster Red Bull driver again if no more defects affect him like in Turkey.

[WhiteBlue]

WhiteBlue - you tell a good story, but there are several holes that call into question the entire yarn.
Do you believe for one second that Vettel thought that Webber was going to let him by unimpeded when he forced him right to the white line to get past him and then held that position!? Would Cireon Pilbeam still be in his job had he deliberately witheld information from his driver, and instead issued a secret code word telling him to fight Vettel by pushing the overtake button!? Even Webber would be mad at him if a team order had been issued that Cireon personally decided to withold.

I have told my view of the incident often enough. Yes, I believe that Vettel was basically faster as he had been all season when his car was ok. Webber and Pilbeam knew this and may have conspired to hold any team order or team strategy talk back so that Webber could play the role of the innocent victim. Of course I cannot prove this but it makes perfect sense that way. It could have been that Pilbeam acted on his own. We know definitly what he did and I fully expect retributions to Pilbeam at a time when the eye of the public is not on the team. Webber IMO knew exactly what was happening because he demanded the team to get Vettel off his neck the previous lap. The giving of the code word for the overtaking button makes a conspiracy prior to the race quite possible. Both Webber and Plibeam must have known that Vettel had been faster in qualifying and would probably be faster in the race.

Yes Vettel lost out in Q3 due to a suspension problem and he may well have managed pole or second on the grid (which wouldn't have helped as Hamilton demonstrated the problems of starting on the dirty side of the track), but he didn't. And in the first stint of the race he did nothing to demonstrate he was faster - he was close on pace but certainly wasn't being held up by Hamilton or Webber as there was a couple of seconds gap. He was also overtaken by Hamilton on that first lap let's not forget.

This has nothing to do with the fact that Vettel was simply faster and had conserved his car better in the earlier stages of the race. Marko, Horner, Pilbeam and Webber knew that because they all had access to the traces which were clear about it.

In the second stint he again held station until suddenly he was able to speed up for a couple of laps. We later find out that this was because he had saved 1 kilo of fuel which allowed him to run the engine on a higher setting for a couple of laps, and via this he was able to catch and pull alongside Webber. There is nothing to suggest that on the next lap when he would have had to turn the engine down that he would have been able to run any faster than Webber.

It made no sense for Vettel to fight Webber in the early stages of the second stint, he could only create a problem with Hamilton that way. Vettel knew he would be faster eventually. Horner as well as Marko knew it or they would not have given the instruction to Webber not to fight Vettel. The team knew that Vettel would go faster even with the reduced engine settings if they could get him into free air. This way it makes perfect sense what the team did.

Vettel has proven time and again that he considers it perfectly acceptable to try and frighten or bully other drivers. He has done this multiple times this year and even once earlier in the race when Hamilton was attempting a pass - and arguably is the only reason that Lewis was unable to get past on that occasion.

Rubbish, Vettel had a reprimand from China which Hamilton had as well. That was all the bad driving that was on his account. The rest is just you giving him a bad name. Vettel was obviously very angry about Webber not giving him room to get on the racing line for the left hander. The previous fighting could have been interpreted as a cover for the team order. It is unfortunate that Sebastian trusted his team to get the order to Webber and trusted Webber to execute the order. Had he been aware of the tough defense that Webber intended he might probably have compromised his entry into the corner to make a full pass instead of turning right for the racing line. At least that is the way I see this incident and your point cannot convince me any other way.

There is absolutely no reasonable doubt that Red Bull tried to tell Webber not to fight Vettel. There is no doubt that Pilbeam intentionally sabotaged that communication. And there is very little doubt that the race would have ended with a victory for Vettel and probably third place for Webber. Red Bull could have had 25 points more but for the meddling of Pilbeam. I know it did not happen but I fully blame Pilbeam (Webber I give the benefit of residual doubt) for preventing these points.

[myurr]

Rubbish, Vettel had a reprimand from China which Hamilton had as well. That was all the bad driving that was on his account. The rest is just you giving him a bad name. Vettel was obviously very angry about Webber not giving him room to get on the racing line for the left hander. The previous fighting could have been interpreted as a cover for the team order.

I will reply to the rest of your post later, but just quickly can you watch this video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGDgaTefTKw[/youtube]

Now tell me that the overtake attempt from Hamilton on Vettel between 1:23 and 1:29 was perfectly okay from Seb's point of view?

The angles don't give the best view, but if you watch carefully you can see that Vettel first defends the the inside line (turns to the left at 1:26, deviating from the racing line that he was previously following) and then turns to the right (1:27) causing Hamilton to have to swerve right to avoid contact. At 1:30 you can see how close they came to making contact which would have been a pretty severe accident. It was serious enough for Lewis to immediately radio his team to say 'That was really dangerous guys.' This move by Vettel, and the subsequent distraction, is arguably the only reason Hamilton didn't make it past him on that occasion although we will never know for sure.

This is almost the exact same style of move that Vettel later pulled on Webber except that in Webber's case he didn't move out the way. Vettel is by no means the only driver who can drive dirty (Barrichello has a history of being over zealous, Webber is certainly no saint and is prone to 'numpty' moments, don't get me started on Schumacher, etc.) but to claim that China was his only transgression is a fabrication. In my opinion, for what it's worth, Vettel has been getting more agressive and arrogant on track this year all culminating in the Istanbul incident. He has a complete disregard for safety (as Alonso did early in his career, the first reason I started disliking him as a driver), and appears happy to drive others off the track or cause a collision rather than concede a place.

In Turkey it is my belief that Vettel was angered slightly by Webber making the pass difficult for him, leaving him so little room, and so he decided to stamp his authority and make a point. F1 is a very psychological sport and the intended message to Webber was 'I am the faster driver, I'm leading the championship, and you have to get out of my way.' However that backfired and fortunately cost Vettel much more than Webber.

Aas I have also said in previous posts though, this would have just been a racing incident had Vettel and the team not conspired to blame and smear Webber ever since. It is this concerted campaign against Webber waged by his own team that has riled me so much, and is why I will distrust all of these 'facts' leaking out about the incident that exonerate Vettel and blame Mark and/or his engineer.

[Mysticf1]

There is no doubt that Pilbeam intentionally sabotaged that communication. And there is very little doubt that the race would have ended with a victory for Vettel and probably third place for Webber.

You may be right and u may be wrong, but dont say there is no doubt because there is ZERO evidence to support your "theory" only hearsay from Redbull.

[strad]

Rubbish is your middle name W/B..I have never figured out if you just make this up and then convince yourself it's true or whether you're just nuts.
W/B said

Webber and Pilbeam knew this and may have conspired to hold any team order or team strategy talk back so that Webber could play the role of the innocent victim.

SO they sat down and hatched this Machiavellian plot when?

[strad]

myurr said

Aas I have also said in previous posts though, this would have just been a racing incident had Vettel and the team not conspired to blame and smear Webber ever since.

I wonder..if it hadn't been teammates there would, maybe should, have been penalties.

[WhiteBlue]

There is no doubt that Pilbeam intentionally sabotaged that communication. And there is very little doubt that the race would have ended with a victory for Vettel and probably third place for Webber.

You may be right and u may be wrong, but dont say there is no doubt because there is ZERO evidence to support your "theory" only hearsay from Redbull.

Too many sources have reported the Pilbeam sabotage and none has said it wasn't true. So we can take that as fact. How much evidence do you need?

The race ending as a 1-3 with Vettel leading is an assumption on my behalf and I have said so but the facts speak all for this version.

[WhiteBlue]

W/B said

Webber and Pilbeam knew this and may have conspired to hold any team order or team strategy talk back so that Webber could play the role of the innocent victim.

SO they sat down and hatched this Machiavellian plot when?

Strad, you should use the quote function properly. Please, read the respective thread to learn how.

On topic: They could have "hatched this plan" right after qualifying when they realized that Vettel was faster in Turkey. They obviously needed a strategy to keep him behind in case the team would bring the faster man to the front.

[WhiteBlue]

you watch this video:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGDgaTefTKw[/youtube]

The footage is very bad and I would not say that you can see what went down there. Was Vettel making one or more defensive moves? By no means clear evidence that he acts the bully as you say.

In Turkey it is my belief that Vettel was angered slightly by Webber making the pass difficult for him, leaving him so little room, and so he decided to stamp his authority and make a point. F1 is a very psychological sport and the intended message to Webber was 'I am the faster driver, I'm leading the championship, and you have to get out of my way.' However that backfired and fortunately cost Vettel much more than Webber.

That makes a lot less sense than my explanation. Sure Vettel was an angry man because he felt that Webber did something that was clearly wrong. And that wrong doing clearly was not yielding the racing line. That was the cause of the crash. So how Vettel could honestly think that Webber would yield the racing line after he had already defended robustly before? Only because Vettel thought the RoE or team order entitled him to claim the line! QED

[Chaparral]

Whiteblue wrote

Too many sources have reported the Pilbeam sabotage and none has said it wasn't true

Well thats not correct - Mark Hughes reported it in Autosport the day RBR issued the press statement that all was hunky dory and theyd drawn a line under the incident - it clearly doesnt appear to be all good and the 'so called' other reports your say exist (and I dont know of others maybe you could furnish them so we can all take a look) and that would be other media tagging onto the Hughes article - something smells in Denmark and it isn't the cheese - last year at the German GP when Mark won his inaugural GP his partner Anne walked into the drivers den and here was Horner & Marko deep in animated conversation and one of the mechanics said to Anne 'hey what about Marks win great stuff' to which she replied 'at least someone appreciates it' the place was apparently like a morgue - that says a lot.

[WhiteBlue]

Whiteblue wrote

Too many sources have reported the Pilbeam sabotage and none has said it wasn't true

Well thats not correct - Mark Hughes reported it in Autosport the day RBR issued the press statement that all was hunky dory and theyd drawn a line under the incident - it clearly doesnt appear to be all good and the 'so called' other reports your say exist (and I dont know of others maybe you could furnish them so we can all take a look)

No problem Chaparral with other sources much earlier than Hughes:

RTL reported it during the race in it's German coverage.
SKY reported it in it's race coverage and commentary.
AMuS Michael Schmidt reported it on Sunday and Monday
Motorsport-total.com reported it on Monday
Austrian television from Hangar #7 reported it on Tuesday
Hughes only reported it on Tuesday after at least 5 media had the story for two days

I say it again. This was team order or if you want to call it that way "communicating team strategy" sabotaged by Mr. Pilbeam. Anybody who says different is in denial of the facts.

It all fits perfectly with Vettel's anger which is hard to explain by other circumstances. He obviously thought Webber was wrong in denying him the racing line, which is only explainable by different RoE or in a team order situation. Vettel isn't so dumb to think Webber would roll over for him under normal circumstances.

Another person very familiar with the Red Bull team situation is Gehard Berger. Gehard came out on Monday or Tuesday saying that according to team RoE Webber should have yielded the racing line and he put the blame for the accident on Webber. Gerhard should know exactly what is going on in the Austrian team. He is another close friend of Mateschitz but hates Marko. Same thing btw with Max Mosley. Close friend of Mateschitz. He said that Webber should have yielded the racing line.

It all points in one direction: Red Bull had a RoE or team order and Pilbeam/Webber went against it out of desperation.

[Chaparral]

It all points in one direction: Red Bull had a RoE or team order and Pilbeam/Webber went against it out of desperation.

if and its a big if - how was Mark involved in the incident if he had no knowledge of what was 'suppposedly' sent down the line of communication - thats just bollocks and you know it.................

Gehard came out on Monday or Tuesday saying that according to team RoE Webber should have yielded the racing line and he put the blame for the accident on Webber.

why should Webber have yielded (because he's not Austian or German and doesn't conform) give me break ace - he as a driver is entitled to keep his line - Vettel came down the inside which is the dirty side of the track and Mark didnt squeeze him - it was the wrong tactic from a racing pov with the current cars and he had absolutely no chance of pulling off a pass - Vettel screwed up........tell me Im wrong (and you will thats your nature).

BTW I tend to think Hughes was the first journo on the case - so we disagree (how unusual)

It all fits perfectly with Vettel's anger which is hard to explain by other circumstances

well not really he's Marko's find isnt he so the golden child in Marko's eyes and justification for Marko's position nothing more - mind you the boy does have some talent but he needs to engage the brain instead of believing the hype....................

[myurr]

Too many sources have reported the Pilbeam sabotage and none has said it wasn't true. So we can take that as fact. How much evidence do you need?

Surely all these 'sources' reporting this have been fed from just one source - the team. So it doesn't matter how many sources report it, they're all effectively the same source and an unreliable one at that.

The evidence I would need would be a full radio transcript, but we're unlikely to ever get that. We can follow the entire conversation that way and then interpret what happened in our own way instead of relying upon the a team that has been proven to be spreading misinformation and lies.

With the team colluding in this that would leave only the Webber camp able to deny the story. In their position would you rock the boat further and get into yet another war of words with your own team when you are trying to renegotiate your contract with said team? Also for all we know Webber may have agreed during his 'clear the air' meeting not to speak further about the incident to the media.

So no, we cannot take this as 'fact'.

[WhiteBlue]

It all points in one direction: Red Bull had a RoE or team order and Pilbeam/Webber went against it out of desperation.

if and its a big if - how was Mark involved in the incident if he had no knowledge of what was 'suppposedly' sent down the line of communication - thats just bollocks and you know it.................

Gehard came out on Monday or Tuesday saying that according to team RoE Webber should have yielded the racing line and he put the blame for the accident on Webber.

why should Webber have yielded (because he's not Austian or German and doesn't conform) give me break ace - he as a driver is entitled to keep his line - Vettel came down the inside which is the dirty side of the track and Mark didnt squeeze him - it was the wrong tactic from a racing pov with the current cars and he had absolutely no chance of pulling off a pass - Vettel screwed up........tell me Im wrong (and you will thats your nature).

BTW I tend to think Hughes was the first journo on the case - so we disagree (how unusual)

It all fits perfectly with Vettel's anger which is hard to explain by other circumstances

well not really he's Marko's find isnt he so the golden child in Marko's eyes and justification for Marko's position nothing more - mind you the boy does have some talent but he needs to engage the brain instead of believing the hype....................

Mark was involved by asking the team to tell Vettel to not attack him. He started the issue of team oder in the first place. They then decided to not grant his request and advised him not fight Vettel. Pilbeam did not pass on that message but told Webber a pre arranged code phrase to "push the overtaking button".

Read this and you see that the date is Monday. One day before Mr. Hughes took notice of the debate which was ongoing for two days.

In the meantime there are additional comments in the German language from Helmut Marko.

The race engineer (Pilbeam) received the order to explain to him (Webber) what was going on. To explain that Vettel was not attacking him but needed to go faster to avoid being passed by Hamilton.

Webber was supposed not to fight the faster Vettel but save his car to fight Hamilton. It is still not entirely clear today why (Webber wasn't informed). This engineer simply had a black out, he did not do the right thing.

[myurr]

The footage is very bad and I would not say that you can see what went down there. Was Vettel making one or more defensive moves? By no means clear evidence that he acts the bully as you say.

The footage is rather bad, but you can clearly see the following sequence of events:

1. Hamilton slipstreams Vettel with both following the racing line over the crest of the hill.
2. At roughly the peak of the hill, Vettel moves to the left to cover the inside line.
3. Hamilton decides to go around the outside.
4. Vettel moves a second time, swerving toward him.
5. Whilst they are alongside each other, Hamilton has to take avoiding action.

As you like to say, this is fact.

So two moves defending his position including a dangerous swerve similar to that he did to Webber a few laps later.

That makes a lot less sense than my explanation. Sure Vettel was an angry man because he felt that Webber did something that was clearly wrong. And that wrong doing clearly was not yielding the racing line. That was the cause of the crash. So how Vettel could honestly think that Webber would yield the racing line after he had already defended robustly before? Only because Vettel thought the RoE or team order entitled him to claim the line! QED

Your story only makes sense if there is a premediated conspiracy to go against team orders within the Webber camp, and if the Red Bull team believes that at this early stage in the championship when its drivers are on identical points, that it is time to pick one driver over the other and decide which one gets a shot at the championship. Oh and presumes that Vettel was actually faster which is not as clear cut as you have made out.

Why does it make less sense that Vettel simply decided to pull the same move on Webber that he had tried earlier on in the race against Hamilton?