What will come after the 2.4 V8?

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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autogyro wrote:Why should Kers come packaged?
Where would the development incentive for future power trains come with that?
Open it right up to inovation.
The trouble is whether the FIA teams and all the others have the 'GUTS' to do it.
At present F1 is a spec series controlled by vested interest and those to scared to take on the responsibility for major change.
All fans do at present is watch aero people play with model aeroplanes, where is F1s fantastic engineering in that?
KERS should be packaged with engines because 90% of the innovation will be in energy recovery. The manufacturers will be keen to compete for the leanest engine giving highest speed and KERS will be the discriminating factor. If you leave it to the teams to buy separate engine and KERS packages you will miss the advantages of integration with the engine. All manufacturers have said that integration will be crucial. Buying the bits separately would be a big disadvantage for customers.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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check this out WB
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... ng-engine/

I thought WRC was sticking to the 2L turbos, but it seems they will switch to 1.6L next year, too bad actually, but that is why i thought the 1.5 is too small.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:
autogyro wrote:Why should Kers come packaged?
Where would the development incentive for future power trains come with that?
Open it right up to inovation.
The trouble is whether the FIA teams and all the others have the 'GUTS' to do it.
At present F1 is a spec series controlled by vested interest and those to scared to take on the responsibility for major change.
All fans do at present is watch aero people play with model aeroplanes, where is F1s fantastic engineering in that?
KERS should be packaged with engines because 90% of the innovation will be in energy recovery. The manufacturers will be keen to compete for the leanest engine giving highest speed and KERS will be the discriminating factor. If you leave it to the teams to buy separate engine and KERS packages you will miss the advantages of integration with the engine. All manufacturers have said that integration will be crucial. Buying the bits separately would be a big disadvantage for customers.
It will not be the Kers that will be the discriminating factor. A well designed kers system should work with any ic engine subject to minor mechanical changes. It will be the computer control electronics that has to be specific for each combination to result in a competitive power train.
The fuel allowed is enough to set a powertrain design with a chosen ic engine spec.

piast9
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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Whatever will happen I'd like to not see engine freeze any more. In my opinion it would be enough to set minimal weight and COG, limit the number of engines per season, limit use of expensive materials and introduce a rule, that engine manufacturer HAS to supply at least one customer team for certain maximum amount of money per unit.

To prevent manufacturers from making different (and expensive) engines for factory team some scrutineering and comparing used engines from factory and customer teams would be necessary.

With that rule we would have affordable engines and technical freedom. Let the engines to spin whatever rpm they can, let the teams achieving the limits of the technology possible for given, reasonable amount of money.

A also think that allowing to use different engine types such as diesel/petrol, turbo and NA etc with some equalization rules is not a good idea. Such thing existed in turbo era in F1 and despite of the efforts the engines were far from equal. The only limit should be a capacity and technology, just to set the power at reasonable level.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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ISLAMATRON wrote:check this out WB
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/ ... ng-engine/

I thought WRC was sticking to the 2L turbos, but it seems they will switch to 1.6L next year, too bad actually, but that is why i thought the 1.5 is too small.
The article actually confirms that anything from 1.5L to 2.0L in line would be possible with the block they want to do. Having VW/Audi/Porsche, Ford and Citroen on board would not be a bad thing for a future F1 engine. Also the weight rule could be different for F1 to match the current 95 kg. You simply use more lightweight engine block and head casting techniques.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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piast9 wrote:Whatever will happen I'd like to not see engine freeze any more. In my opinion it would be enough to set minimal weight and COG, limit the number of engines per season, limit use of expensive materials and introduce a rule, that engine manufacturer HAS to supply at least one customer team for certain maximum amount of money per unit.

To prevent manufacturers from making different (and expensive) engines for factory team some scrutineering and comparing used engines from factory and customer teams would be necessary.

With that rule we would have affordable engines and technical freedom. Let the engines to spin whatever rpm they can, let the teams achieving the limits of the technology possible for given, reasonable amount of money.

A also think that allowing to use different engine types such as diesel/petrol, turbo and NA etc with some equalization rules is not a good idea. Such thing existed in turbo era in F1 and despite of the efforts the engines were far from equal. The only limit should be a capacity and technology, just to set the power at reasonable level.
In the future the only thing which will mean anything will be the amount of fuel/energy allowed by the regulations to complete the race. It will not matter what capacity, number of cylinders, rpm, valve type or anything else the designer chooses, so long as they work it out for the best efficiency/power delivery.
This technical direction 'must' be taken if F1 is to reflect the needs of modern vehicle design and if it hopes to continue in existance in the future. This is the 'only' way to at last ensure development of ic technology away from the present stagnation and onward to its ultimate efficient form.

At present the embedded motor heads in all the organising bodies and teams, are delaying this inevitable and demanded change for their own selfish and self serving reasons.
Their only argument which is so silly and banded about so much, is that the cars must go brrrm brrrm to sound macho. How narrow minded and daft can anyone be?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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There are two sides to the energy efficiency discussion. The fan side and the public side.

The FiA is concerned about the public side because they act as the lobbyist of the motorists in the political arena. In that arena they are asking for better fuel economy, better safety, more standard equipment and better value for money in road cars all the time. They take a heavy influence in legislation particularly in Europe where they have made their claim to fame with the Euro NCAP rating system. In their stance as the motorist's lobbyist they are constantly embarrassed by the lack of fuel efficiency of F1 which is basically owned by the FiA. So it's no great surprise that all FiA presidents since 2004 including Jean Todt have put fuel efficiency relatively high on their agenda for F1.

The majority of F1 fans want spectacle, extreme technology, fast changing competition, excitement and ear shattering noise. They don't care about physical limits for drivers, teams going bust, or the risk of lethal accidents. They want all the goodies and if possible for much lower ticket prices. That is only natural. F1 will try to give their customers all the goodies within reasonable limits. Unfortunately the real world has to make compromises so that the drivers and marshals still enjoy decent safety, the teams can stay in business, the tracks do not go bust on ever wider crash zones and the tax payers in different countries will still pay the deficits of the race promoters. Ultimately F1 belongs to the FiA and those blazers will finally have to approve any decision the teams take. So if the teams do not give enough priority to fuel efficiency the WMSC will put a stick into the spikes and stop any formula they don't like.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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It is fair to say that most F1 fans want ear shattering noise WB.
I agree and I also like it as well.
Unfortunately, the vast majority are deluding themselves simply because the vast majority never actualy see or hear F1 cars in the flesh.
The argument has no substance.

andrew
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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The vast majority of F1 Technical users want Autogyro to stop telling them that they are deluded and that their arguements have no substance. :lol:

mx_tifoso
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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WhiteBlue wrote:There are two sides to the energy efficiency discussion. The fan side and the public side.

...

The majority of F1 fans want spectacle, extreme technology, fast changing competition, excitement and ear shattering noise. They don't care about physical limits for drivers, teams going bust, or the risk of lethal accidents. They want all the goodies and if possible for much lower ticket prices. That is only natural. F1 will try to give their customers all the goodies within reasonable limits. Unfortunately the real world has to make compromises so that the drivers and marshals still enjoy decent safety, the teams can stay in business, the tracks do not go bust on ever wider crash zones and the tax payers in different countries will still pay the deficits of the race promoters. Ultimately F1 belongs to the FiA and those blazers will finally have to approve any decision the teams take. So if the teams do not give enough priority to fuel efficiency the WMSC will put a stick into the spikes and stop any formula they don't like.
I'm sorry WB but that's a little off of the true mark. You really shouldn't go around stating what others want as if it's fact and that you have a true understanding of it. Please get off your high horse, or someone's going to have to pull you down.
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autogyro
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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andrew wrote:The vast majority of F1 Technical users want Autogyro to stop telling them that they are deluded and that their arguements have no substance. :lol:
Perhaps andrew but isnt it sad that FIs future and the future of vehicle technology is being held back by those who demand something they say they enjoy when in fact most of them have never even experienced it and never will.

rjsa
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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autogyro wrote:It is fair to say that most F1 fans want ear shattering noise WB.
I agree and I also like it as well.
Unfortunately, the vast majority are deluding themselves simply because the vast majority never actualy see or hear F1 cars in the flesh.
The argument has no substance.
I for one have been seeing them since the DFV's and miss the V10 really bad right now. The V12 and 16 Cil Lamborghines are also missed.

Why else would I spend U$500 on a grand stand ticket to go to the track and see 2 passes if I'm lucky? I can spend $200 for a pit pass on BR V8 stock cars and see much more racing.

andrew
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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autogyro wrote:
andrew wrote:The vast majority of F1 Technical users want Autogyro to stop telling them that they are deluded and that their arguements have no substance. :lol:
Perhaps andrew but isnt it sad that FIs future and the future of vehicle technology is being held back by those who demand something they say they enjoy when in fact most of them have never even experienced it and never will.
It is sad but I guess rose tinted glasses count for lot. Personnally, I'm not too worried about what engine format is chosen. As long as there is good racing, they can use whatever they like.

xpensive
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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There is perhaps another angle to the use, or not use, of an inline-four, can such a configuration be used as a fully stressed member?
I mean lateral stiffness-wise, as far as I can recall, the BMW 1.5 inline-four turbo needed some sort of sub-frame to support it?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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Pandamasque
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Re: Sensible ideas for what will happen after the 2.4 V8?

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autogyro wrote:
andrew wrote:The vast majority of F1 Technical users want Autogyro to stop telling them that they are deluded and that their arguements have no substance. :lol:
Perhaps andrew but isnt it sad that FIs future and the future of vehicle technology is being held back by those who demand something they say they enjoy when in fact most of them have never even experienced it and never will.
Could it be that you are completely wrong about this? I mean if we assume that you can theoretically be wrong.

I've heard an F1 from 2m away and it sounded exactly as I'd expected it to sound based on my perception from the TV coverage.
Often from listening to even a rather poor record you know the band is loud. You have to be quite deaf to say that F3 engines sound just as exciting as F1 on TV.

And it's not just the sound. Non-ICE racing is something else and cannot substitute motorsport. I've nothing against them, I'm just not interested.