Replacing fossil fuels

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autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Replacing fossil fuels

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I am looking forward to the gradual replacement of these oil company sponsors with the new alternate energy companies as they gain more power in the market place.
Oil companies will slowly go the way of tobacco sponsorship.

donskar
donskar
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Joined: 03 Feb 2007, 16:41
Location: Cardboard box, end of Boulevard of Broken Dreams

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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autogyro wrote:I am looking forward to the gradual replacement of these oil company sponsors with the new alternate energy companies as they gain more power in the market place.
Oil companies will slowly go the way of tobacco sponsorship.
Ve-e-e-e-ry sl-o-o-o-o-wly
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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We shall see, stranger things have happened.

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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Yes, yes auto...
and as soon as we have renewable lubricating oils and renewable hydraulic & brake fluids and greases and all the other oil company technical help the teams need then we'll all be cosy and green won't we...

oh, sorry, I forgot; 1st gen biofuels are worse than the fossil fuels you hate so much;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/5369284.stm

And that nice Mr Bush's dash for ethanol was nothing at all to do with the green agenda, but simply trying to reduce his reliance on the middle east. Every time you want to take a poke at the oil companies auto just say quietly to yourself 'Laws of thermodynamics' and 'well to wheel' - then, when you've had think about the answer ask yourself if you really want to make your next post.

I've said it before, no doubt I'll say it again; the problem is not the oil companies (most of whom now describe themselves as energy companies in any case), it's those nice people who drive around in ridiculous gas guzzling SUVs when they could be driving around in fuel efficient turbo diesel cars.

Anyhow, before I stray further off topic, I'll respond to the post topic when I have a little more time...
Mike

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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My my mickey s a 2006 biased BBC article.
The fossil fuel barons must be getting desperate to get you to trawl that one up.
Sorry old news you will have to study a bit more.
Ethanol is a far better fuel for ic use than petrol or diesel and you can even drink it it is so much cleaner than the toxins in the fossil fuels.
I wonder if the motor heads realise that ethanol is much much better in high compression engines than petrol and needs no toxic additives for a much smoother burn.

It is not alternative fuels that are the problem, it is the criminal methods used to prevent the general public from finding out the truth.

Alternate energy companies will slowly replace oil companies in F1, there is no turning back now, no matter how many lies are produced. Modern communication will make sure of this.
Castrol R was a superb racing oil and there are plenty of sources for oil products in the natural ecology to allow us to stop using fossil oil. It simply takes the will to do it in the face of the greedy filth pedlars.
F1 should lead the way, not be led by the nose as it is at present.


As to 'WELL TO WHEEL' that is the biggest con of the lot.
No need for any damn 'WELL' with bio alternatives, you just deal with the criminals deluding the public.
Ask all the people living around the Gulf of Mexico what they think about your precious Oil well to wheel figures, the figures make absolutely NO sense to any of them. Only the banks benefit not the people and we have seen how honest the banks are.

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WhiteBlue
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Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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From the BBC article wrote:The grain required to fill the petrol tank of a Range Rover with ethanol is sufficient to feed one person per year. Assuming the petrol tank is refilled every two weeks, the amount of grain required would feed a hungry African village for a year.

Much of the fuel that Europeans use will be imported from Brazil, where the Amazon is being burned to plant more sugar and soybeans, and Southeast Asia, where oil palm plantations are destroying the rainforest habitat of orangutans and many other species. Species are dying for our driving.

The expansion of biofuels would increase monoculture farming.

If ethanol is imported from the US, it will likely come from maize, which uses fossil fuels at every stage in the production process, from cultivation using fertilisers and tractors to processing and transportation. Growing maize appears to use 30% more energy than the finished fuel produces, and leaves eroded soils and polluted waters behind.

Meeting the 5.75% (EU) target would require, according to one authoritative study, a quarter of the EU's arable land.

Using ethanol rather than petrol reduces total emissions of carbon dioxide by only about 13% because of the pollution caused by the production process, and because ethanol gets only about 70% of the mileage of petrol.

Food prices are already increasing. With just 10% of the world's sugar harvest being converted to ethanol, the price of sugar has doubled; the price of palm oil has increased 15% over the past year, with a further 25% gain expected next year.

Little wonder that many are calling biofuels "deforestation diesel", the opposite of the environmentally friendly fuel that all are seeking.

With so much farmland already taking the form of monoculture, with all that implies for wildlife, do we really want to create more diversity-stripped desert?

Others are worried about the impacts of biofuels on food prices, which will affect especially the poor who already spend a large proportion of their income on food.
This is from 2006 but pretty much nothing has changed. The points are still valid as far as I can see. In particular newer studies have shown that using arable land, fresh water and large monoculture plantation to replace fossil fuels would
  • massively increase erosion
  • destroy arable land by monoculture and agro chemicals
  • endanger deep ground water integrity
  • exceed the available fresh water resources
  • destroy wild life and cultivation plant diversity
  • promote pest species
The proper way to produce bio fuel is to use waste bio mass and sewage in bios gas plants, convert wood in a sustainable way (if economically feasible), use algae with sea water for feed bio mass and similar schemes that do not negatively affect the arable land, the food production and the fresh water resources.

Apart from that increasing fuel efficiency and saving fuel is still having the biggest potential. Fuel that you do not use is the best alternative.

So the agenda for road traffic should include
  • improve combustion efficiency of ICE
  • avoid throttling losses
  • improve efficiency of power train
  • reclaim brake energy (KERS)
  • reclaim exhaust energy (turbo)
  • reclaim heat energy by secondary thermodynamic process
  • reduce vehicle weight
  • reduce aerodynamic drag
  • improve vehicle occupancy
  • avoid unnecessary traffic
  • reduce unnecessary speed
It is also important to improve battery technology in order to use more electric vehicles. Stationary electricity production from fossil fuel hits 60% efficiency compared to under 30% in typical ICE driven cars. So electric vehicles use less fossile fuel than ICE powered cars. Power stations can also quench CO2 back into empty oil and gas fields.
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 13 Jun 2010, 02:21, edited 3 times in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

donskar
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Re: Oil Companies in F1

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autogyro, I learned long ago that if you have something important to say, you can whisper it and people will listen.

And yelling? It just turns people off. That is what you are doing -- not winning converts to your ideas, but rather driving them away.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Oil Companies in F1

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The answer is massive investment in nuclear power. If you want to run all personal transport on electricity and still feed the planet then it's the only way to go.

Crops must not be grown to run cars.

Anyone proposing "bio-fuel" is, in effect, proposing a crime against humanity.

It's not about land use (although that is an issue) it's about water use. Growing energy crops using intensive irrigation is not sustainable.

Suggesting that one can grow useful amounts of energy crops without extensive irrigation is fallacy at best, criminal at worst.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Oil Companies in F1

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donskar wrote: And yelling? It just turns people off. That is what you are doing -- not winning converts to your ideas, but rather driving them away.
His semi-veiled anti-semitic rhetoric in other threads is already doing that...
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Oil Companies in F1

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WB everything posted in your link is a result of the corruption in world agriculture. I have helped convert a farm to run all its energy requirements from its own bio sources and to become self sufficient in energy.
Run tractors on powdered straw, designed straw compacting machinery to produce straw as a fuel for electricity production and much more.
The huge amount of fossil fuel used to run American agriculture is part of the hidden corruption in the system. It is possible to make farms self sufficient in energy. Instead they burn off the straw or make it geneticaly shorter with risky bio manipulation.
The figures quoted for comparisons always conveniently ignore the huge cost of oil and the huge energy waste in producing crops from it.
It is impossible to compare the development of an energy system intended to be in balance with our world to the current one of outright exploitation at the expense of all our futures.
Go to Africa and study African agriculture and land mass. It is completely corrupted and held back by the criminal world system. Those who leech off world agriculture do not want the potential of third world agriculture to upset their meal ticket. This is the problem. There is more than enough land to grow bio fuels but it is the greedy filth sellers who stop it from happening.
In anycase, with the latest developments of electric vehicles and ideas for supplying the national grids with electricity from vehicles when not in use, the actual need for liquid fueled vehicles is becoming less and less.
Sensible centralised energy production in balance with the environment could be the norm if it were not for the greed merchants.

I look forward to fossil oil companies coming out of F1 because they cannot afford it like the tyre companies and car makers. The way will then be open to sponsers that reflect the future world.

andrew
andrew
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Re: Replacing fossil fuels

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I would actually like to see hydrogen fuel cells developed futher. Electric cars are a non-starter but I think that hygrogen would be a suitable replacement for petrol.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Location: SU 419113

Re: Replacing fossil fuels

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Third world agricultural agendas?

Bio fuels can never be sustainable while the worlds population increases. Farmers in Africa survive through 90% subsistence farming, this is not corrupt, this is cultural!
To dismiss their culture and expect them to become commercial farmers so that you and I can have "bio fuel" is ridiculous.
It is for them to decide when and what they do with their own resources.

Oil companies being vilified is just a green bandwagon. I choose to look deeper at the issues. What can replace oil today? NOTHING
What can replace oil in 10 years? Electricity? But that has a higher carbon footprint if not produced in Nuclear powerstations, So no, it cannot replace oil yet.

Bio fuels? Only if the country that sells it produces it. Why? If the price of Maize goes up to the stratosphere because Europe and the US demand it to power their cars, Poor countries will suffer and a hungry continent will grow hungrier!
People will starve and it will all be ok because we are being green right?
More could have been done.
David Purley

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Replacing fossil fuels

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andrew wrote:I would actually like to see hydrogen fuel cells developed futher. Electric cars are a non-starter but I think that hygrogen would be a suitable replacement for petrol.
Hydrogen fuel cells are a mature technolgy developed by NASA for use in space ships that have ample supplies of high pressure very low temperature hydrogen available to fuel them.
It is the oil companies that are promoting and financing continued development of hydrogen as a road vehicle fuel. There are a number of corrupt reasons. First the technology has already been developed at someone elses expense. Secondly it is a simple matter to use either oil or CNG as a source of hydrogen to keep the oil companies profitable and three the oil companies are using the hydrogen banner to con the general public into thinking it is a Utopian and 'clean' source of energy and vehicle fuel when it is not. If any of you promoting Hydrogen for either direct burning in ic engines or hydrogen fuel cells can give one sensible clue as to how an infra structure can be built to handle liquid hydrogen at high pressure and extreemly low temperature. please tell us, as without it Hydrogen has no chance as a prime mover fuel.
If there are to be fuel cell vehicles to help the inevitable change over to pure electric, then they will be ethanol fuel cells. Ethanol fuel cells would be as mature as hydrogen fuel cells if the same amount of money were to be spent on them. Ask the oil companies why this is not the case.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: Replacing fossil fuels

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Third world agricultural agendas?

Bio fuels can never be sustainable while the worlds population increases. Farmers in Africa survive through 90% subsistence farming, this is not corrupt, this is cultural!
To dismiss their culture and expect them to become commercial farmers so that you and I can have "bio fuel" is ridiculous.
It is for them to decide when and what they do with their own resources.

Oil companies being vilified is just a green bandwagon. I choose to look deeper at the issues. What can replace oil today? NOTHING
What can replace oil in 10 years? Electricity? But that has a higher carbon footprint if not produced in Nuclear powerstations, So no, it cannot replace oil yet.

Bio fuels? Only if the country that sells it produces it. Why? If the price of Maize goes up to the stratosphere because Europe and the US demand it to power their cars, Poor countries will suffer and a hungry continent will grow hungrier!
People will starve and it will all be ok because we are being green right?

I can only suggest that you go to Africa as I have and look into African agriculture in the huge land area where it exists.
Please do not use the 'culture' excuse. It has unpleasant undertones. I have met many African farmers who obviously know far far more than you about modern agriculture.
To say you wish to leave Africans to make up their own minds about their agriculture is an insult to the inteligence of anyone who has had experience of the American controlled world food markets and the murderous effect this has on the population of Africa.
I have buried people in Africa because of the corrupt world food markets, so please do not make unqualified remarks on the subject.


Saying there is NOTHING to replace oil is absolute unadulterated rubbish.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Replacing fossil fuels

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The facts in the energy debate are relatively simple. Mankind has a limited depot of fossil fuel to exploit and the exploitation has largely been controlled by simple economic balance. Price has gone up with the higher degree of exploitation.

With the global warming problem we have acquired a second source of cost which has not been considered before. Climate change is imposing gigantic environmental engineering costs on many global regions primarily in the mountains and the tidal areas. These costs are not time proportional to the burning of the fuel but have a delaying effect which makes it so easy to adopt a "head in the sand" strategy. If we deal with it rationally and fairly we must accept that it will take a huge finance effort to load the use of fossil fuel with taxes that provide the means of paying for many trillions in environmental damages that are building up. The inevitable consequence is a huge increase in the cost of fossil based fuel. Current "high" prices are only the tip of the berg that is to come. € 5/L or $ 15/gallon will be reality pretty soon if we deal fairly with the damages we are causing the environment now.

Logically it follows that all measures that reduce the waste and increase efficiency of fuel use will gradually become more affordable and necessary.

The use of biologically produced fuel is theoretically unlimited if you neglect the impact on food production, fresh water management, species conservation and soil use. Considering all these aspects you have to respect certain limits to avoid natural or civil disasters. If we respect the limits there should still be many opportunities to replace some of the fossil fuel we use now with bio fuel.

Electric cars are as inevitable as the rising of the sun. Electric storage is getting ever more efficient and stationary electric power generation is twice as efficient as mobile power by an ICE. That gap will provide ample business for people with good marketing and engineering brains.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)