Replacing fossil fuels

[WhiteBlue]

Need no source for that, how many gasoline-TC's is BMW marketing as we speak?

All Petrol engines: BMW 318i, 320i, 325i, 330i, 335i.
How do you improve an engine that has already won the Engine of the Year Award six times? With a Twin Scroll turbocharger, Valvetronic and direct petrol injection for a start.

BMW will continue to develop turbo charged petrol engines in the future although their petrol percentage is falling steadily with the popularity of the higher mpg diesels.

For their first GDI turbo compare their 2006 designed direct-injection, Bi-Turbo Inline Six. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03 ... s_new.html

I think we'll be waiting a while before we see a wankel BMW

Audi will bring the A1 e-tron which will run with a 20 hp Wankel similarly to the system Autogyro described. Chevy Volt 2011 is supposed to be also similar with a range extender Wankel. If this is successful BMW will not be far behind.

[flynfrog]

Give me the budget and I would develop a Wankel rotary with exhaust turbo generator feeding the electric storage of an intigral zero torque multi stepped gearbox/hybrid energy recovery and apply unit.
The whole powertrain less storage and control no larger than an F1 engine.
It could operate as either a conventional multi stepped powertrain, a series hybrid, a parallel hybrid or a pure electric.
Unfortunately, we must wait while the selfish manufacturers continue to bolt on extra gearboxes motors and generators to obsolute fuel wasting 19th century vehicles.
The 1909 Panhard Levassa my friend has just started to rebuild uses less energy than most so called modern vehicles.

so it would be an overly complex with terrible fuel economy and bad emissions. Not to mention the terrible environmental damage to make and dispose of the batteries sounds like a winner. Ill take a TDI with a 6 speed any day.

[ISLAMATRON]

did someone say e-tron rotary?

so it would be an overly complex with terrible fuel economy and bad emissions. Not to mention the terrible environmental damage to make and dispose of the batteries sounds like a winner. Ill take a TDI with a 6 speed any day.

Ill race you in my 5 speed rotary, guess who'd win?

[xpensive]

Need no source for that, how many gasoline-TC's is BMW marketing as we speak?

All Petrol engines: BMW 318i, 320i, 325i, 330i, 335i.
How do you improve an engine that has already won the Engine of the Year Award six times? With a Twin Scroll turbocharger, Valvetronic and direct petrol injection for a start.

BMW will continue to develop turbo charged petrol engines in the future although their petrol percentage is falling steadily with the popularity of the higher mpg diesels.

For their first GDI turbo compare their 2006 designed direct-injection, Bi-Turbo Inline Six. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03 ... s_new.html

I'm sorry, I can't really follow here WB, concrete now, which BMW Gasoline-TC models can I buy at the moment if I wanted one?

What a TC does is packing more oxygene-molecules into the engine, helping it burn as much fuel as a larger atmo-engine, where the obvious gain would be less internal friction and less fuel consumption in the lower part of the power-band, but other than that I can't really see the efficiency advantages if you really use the power available, like in a racing engine?

Besides, the TC is not running for free, it will create a back-pressure on the xhausts comparable to the boost, depending on turbine sizes.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The wankel rotaries my friend have in their Rx8 is undertorqued and very thirsty.
Yes he does 15,000 miles a year but is that really a reason to carry a 15 litre oil can?
I read that Rotaries are lighter and offer more power for their size and weight, and that they theoretically can be very efficent with the addition of an added spark plug in the combustion chamber. Howcome hasnt been applied in production versions yet?

I read about diesotto and think this is far more promising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DiesOtto

[tok-tokkie]

Fossil 'fuel' is also the best feedstock for our synthesised materials (plastic). To simply oxidise that resource is criminal when taking a long term view.

Capture solar energy, distribute it as eecticity & store it as hydrogen or pumped water or ethanol (or something like that).

Nuclear as well. Bill Gates has invested in TeraPower though their technology is expected to take 40 years to be commercial.
http://www.xconomy.com/seattle/2010/03/ ... ervention/

[WhiteBlue]

I'm sorry, I can't really follow here WB, concrete now, which BMW Gasoline-TC models can I buy at the moment if I wanted one?

What a TC does is packing more oxygene-molecules into the engine, helping it burn as much fuel as a larger atmo-engine, where the obvious gain would be less internal friction and less fuel consumption in the lower part of the power-band, but other than that I can't really see the efficiency advantages if you really use the power available, like in a racing engine?

Besides, the TC is not running for free, it will create a back-pressure on the xhausts comparable to the boost, depending on turbine sizes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection please read the theory there.

The other info about the 3 and 5 series is easily found on BMW.com I believe that their 2010 models 3 and 5 series all feature some turbo charged direct injection petrol engines. If they are not available in your country yet you should ask your BMW dealer.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/3 ... ngine.html
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/3 ... etrol.html
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/5 ... ngine.html

The 3 and the 5 series are BMW's biggest seller. So it should really be relevant for sales numbers.

Future models including the mighty M5 will all go turbo charged.

http://www.automoblog.net/2010/01/29/ne ... -bmw-135i/
http://www.worldcarfans.com/11006072669 ... ged-engine
http://jalopnik.com/5474926/next-bmw-1+ ... ed-engines

When BMW releases the next generation 2012 BMW M5, the car will be sold with a turbocharged V8 engine. The performance-oriented mid-sized four-door will share powerplant technology with the X5 M and X6 M. The petrol engine is expected to produce between 580 PS (427 kW / 572 bhp) and 600 PS (441 kW / 592 bhp), and could likely use two twin-scroll turbochargers.

The new turbo engines for the 1-series will be three cylinders.

116i: 1.35-liter inline-three with 140 Lb-Ft of torque.
118i: 1.35-liter inline-three with 162 Lb-Ft.
120i: 1.35-liter inline-three with 192 Lb-Ft.
123i: 1.8-liter inline-four with 221 Lb-Ft.
125i: 1.8-liter inline-four with 258 Lb-Ft.

Racing engines like all engines do not always run on full song. So the advantages of avoiding throttle losses and lean combustion should apply here as well. The challenge for the regulators is turning efficiency advantages into racing advantages which is best done by a fixed fuel or energy budget. But that discussion we have already done.

Future technologies which all go with turbo charging and high pressure direct gasoline injection is HCCI. All these technologies are applicable to F1 and are considered for the future engine formula if you can see in the relevant threads here on F1technical.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

WhiteBlue

I agree about Turbo's and specifically BMW who, traditionaly preffered natural aspiration to forced induction.
The 3.0 litre twin turbo of the 335i can get 34mpg and emits 190g/km C02.

It leads its class by a huge margin by not only offering superior performance but also far superior economy.
Mercedes have freely admitted turbos are where the next 10 years of automotive developments lies and Audi(VW AG) are investing vast sums into more research in this area.

My only worry is the japanese, americans and even koreans are looking into the "hybrid" options of battery powered cars with back-up ICE or vice versa. They have had ten years but still cannot match the efficiency of a sole ICE motorcar.

The 116d Sport BMW 1 series will crack 60 in 10 seconds and do 65mpg. Tell me for this sort of car that is not impressive? IT AMAZING really, Honda(sadly, as I love em) cannot match this with the CR-Z or insight, and Toyota are even further behind.

Basically if an engine can muster torque efficiently, it can be very frugal in the real world. as Less right foot is required to get the thing going....
This means the end of V-tec.... ..... sad day for me

[autogyro]

We have used the Norton Wankel engine in light aircraft applications and are well aware that Norton were shafted by the Japanese regarding on going developments for motor cycle applications, as were Mazda on the cars.

To attempt another explanation of the potential:-

Yes the Wankel rotary has to be run rich to assist cooling and flame travel.
High temperature can result in tip seal wear, excess oil use and chamber wear.

I am not suggesting turbocharging the induction charge as in conventional turbocharging, that would achieve little in sorting the problems.
I am suggesting a turbogenerator as part of a hybrid powertrain with the wankel rotary as the prime mover. Extra fuel would be introduced into the exhaust with air to burn the fuel rich exhaust gas and drive a turbochargegenerator to produce energy for electrical storage and deal with the excess fuel use and exhaust pollution.The engine would be kept under load and high efficiency.
With an integral gearbox/hybrid generator/motor, the engine could be used for prime mover, or the energy source for any combination of Hybrid use and also full electric with the rotary off. The whole powertrain would weigh a fraction of any other for the same fuel efficiency/power output/range.

[010010011010]

Autogyro, why not use a jet engine to drive the generator. They work well at constant rpm and can be made extremely small, simple and light.

[autogyro]

Autogyro, why not use a jet engine to drive the generator. They work well at constant rpm and can be made extremely small, simple and light.

That is precisely what Rover and Jaguar are doing.
IMO a turbine engine is not versatile enough to meet all the torque requirements and a wankel rotary is.
Also the operating rpm is much higher on a turbine than a wankel rotary, which then forces additional gear sets and clutches which are not needed at all with my system.

[010010011010]

Wankels arent know for their torque, and anyway torque isnt an issue if its only driving a generator

[andrew]

I thought Wankel engines were pretty thirsty. Not good for saving fuel.

[WhiteBlue]

I thought Wankel engines were pretty thirsty. Not good for saving fuel.

I guess this is an optimization issue. Wankel engines are compact and light. They would probably do very little duty as these cars are primarily designed as plug in hybrids. So the energy and space consumption of carrying a heavier and more fuel efficient engine would be eaten up by the weight penalty.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I thought Wankel engines were pretty thirsty. Not good for saving fuel.

I guess this is an optimization issue. Wankel engines are compact and light. They would probably do very little duty as these cars are primarily designed as plug in hybrids. So the energy and space consumption of carrying a heavier and more fuel efficient engine would be eaten up by the weight penalty.

The Problem for rotaries is that it has less effective sealing compared to that of standard piston engined cars. Apparently it isnt easy to overcome as the rotor needs the room not only to rotate but also dispense of exhaust gas too.
It explains some of the inefficiency but not all.