Is KERS going to be around next year?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Perhaps celebrating SA's formidable success in the FIFA World Cup, JET`?

In terms of Football, I hold true to my dads ancestry..Portugal!
Rugby and Cricket.... South African

[autogyro]

KERS will remain in the regulations next year and many of the teams have stated that they are going to use the technology.
It is a start but KERS remains strictly limited and not open enough for proper and relevent development.
The technology is directly relevent to the improvement of road vehicle powertrains and their impact on the world environment and economy. It does not fall within F1s requirement for budget cuts and regulations should be structured to allow outside engineering interest to secure funding for research.
For this reason the KERS regulations should be opened up by increasing the energy allowed and giving permission for new ideas.
Then perhaps F1 would reflect its original purpose in a small way, instead of continuing as a benefit for the vehicle manufacturers with goons like Montezemolo slowly killing the golden goose for self interest.

[andrew]

KERS is a bad idea. I don't see the point of it, especially when F1 costs are wanting to be cut. Developing and incorporating KERS into the cars will put the costs up if anything. It is completely pointless and I can't understand the logic behind KERS. Maybe in road cars (I think some Audis have a similar system) but in racing is just pointless.

[TheRMVR]

KERS is a bad idea. I don't see the point of it, especially when F1 costs are wanting to be cut. Developing and incorporating KERS into the cars will put the costs up if anything. It is completely pointless and I can't understand the logic behind KERS. Maybe in road cars (I think some Audis have a similar system) but in racing is just pointless.

How can you say it's pointless? It increases overtaking possibilities and improves the show. Besides that the teams said that the technology can be usefull for roadcars and allthough some of us don't like to admit it but F1 still is a R&D department for road cars. Manufactures need to be stimulated to stay in F1 and KERS is something that attracts car manufactures.

So all in all it's good for the fans because they'll see more overtaking, it's good for F1's health as there will be more manufactures interested in taking part in F1 and it's not that expensive.

[andrew]

It may be good briefly, but once all the drivers work out where is best to use KERS at each track, I can see them all using it at the same time so back to square one with no overtaking. KERS is just a band-aid solution and will not solve the lack of overtaking in the long term.

[autogyro]

It may be good briefly, but once all the drivers work out where is best to use KERS at each track, I can see them all using it at the same time so back to square one with no overtaking. KERS is just a band-aid solution and will not solve the lack of overtaking in the long term.

You have a very basic and narrow view of what F1 is Andrew.
If you want to see drivers competing , there are many formula with far more excitement than F1.
If you want to talk endlessly about aerodynamics and ignore all other forms of technology then go buy a model aeroplane kit.
F1 is not world soccer for morons Andrew, it is the peak of vehicle technology nothing less.
I just hate it when people with little imagination decry anything that isnt either PC correct or bald headed macho, It makes human life seem almost irelevent.

[andrew]

Autogyro - I know perfectly well what F1 is and about. And I appreciate that it is meant to showcase innovative technology. It is also about the excitement of the race. At the moment the racing is generaly missing. If you are happy watching procession after procession then perhaps you should sit watching traffic at rush hour and leave F1 to the true fans.

My comments are nothing to do with having little imagination but having seen KERS used last year, it added nothing and was just a glorified push-to-pass button. Reducing downforce and relying on mechanical grip will add a lot more than KERS ever will.

[hollus]

@Andrew:
KERS seems to improve lap times within the current regulations... at least many teams thought so based on simulations last year, and the Mclarens weren't slowed down by it in any obvious way (once they optimized the car), so there is a point to having KERS in the car.
Regarding overtaking, with the current 6 second per lap rule, it is a great chance for the car behind if it is faster enough. Most circuits offer more than one passing opportunity, and it is up to the defending driver to guess (second guess really) where the attacking car will deploy it. If the attacking car can use it in different places in different laps, it is a very tricky defensive game. For example: The defender uses his KERS in straight number one, as optimal for lap time thinking that the attacker will do the same. Except in a particular lap he doesn't, losing 0.2 seconds in the process. 4 corners later he is back behind the defending car, still with 6 seconds of KERS ready for the second straight...
Ever seen a fencing match? Or a tennis match? Or a penalty kick? Or boxing? Or basketball? Feinting, feinting and some counterfeinting, with the occasional straight move that can be predicted. In F1 vocabulary, that makes for great racing. Better (IMO) if all cars have similar systems, so it up to the driver to make the difference.

[WhiteBlue]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84675?

Cosworth is anticipating that the WMSC will rubber stamp the decision of the F1Commission and prepare for the return of KERS. It means that Cosworth will not be preparing packages but their customers will still have a much lower engine price than the Ferrari customers pay.

[xpensive]

An outrageously simplified attempt for an estimation of the usefulness of 400 kJ KERS;

If an F1 car consumes 3.5 liters of gasoline per lap, that's 120 000 kJ, which with a 25% engine-efficiency means 30 000 kJ of useful energy, while 400 kJ xtra is 1.3% of that, which spent on 30 s of applied full power would mean 0.4 seconds.

In reality, things are far more complicated than that of course as air-resistance goes with the square of the speed, but anyway.

[Richard]

Andrew, we all agree that the push to pass implementation of KERS is a distracting gimmick. Unlimited KERS as part of an integrated power train opens up a fantastic technical challenge for the teams.

I hope you are not saying no to any form of hyrbid power? That would rapidly turn F1 into a dinasour race series, just like the American series with carberuttors and push rod engines.

[andrew]

My main problem with the introduction of KERS is that I can see the drivers deploying it in mucu the same places lap after lap and they end up all doing the same so the overtaking problems aill be back to square 1.

I think the way to go before something like KERS and/or turbos is to greatly reduce the aero depandance of the cars for downforce and increase mechanical grip. If this means slowing the cars down then fine. As long as they can get close engough to each other to attempt overtaking without wrecking their front tyres.

If KERS comes in and it's a success then fair enough, they got something right, but I will remain sceptical until I have seen what develops.

[RAF]

Is it really that relevant to the car industry? The type of KERS F1 use I mean.

[WhiteBlue]

My main problem with the introduction of KERS is that I can see the drivers deploying it in mucu the same places lap after lap and they end up all doing the same so the overtaking problems aill be back to square 1.

I think the way to go before something like KERS and/or turbos is to greatly reduce the aero depandance of the cars for downforce and increase mechanical grip. If this means slowing the cars down then fine. As long as they can get close engough to each other to attempt overtaking without wrecking their front tyres.

Andrew, we all agree that the push to pass implementation of KERS is a distracting gimmick.

+1

Downforce is already cut for next year although unfortunately the effect is not stabilized by also taking away the energy that it wasted. So the engineers will happily pile it on again by other means like bigger wings with steeper angle of attack. We will only see the cursed downforce curbed eventually when it is limited by a physical definition or by a restrictive energy budget. F1 teams currently are dominated by aerodynamical engineers and they dominate the F1 commission. So it is impossible to say how long it will take them to eventually see the light.

KERS will eventually come right in a dual torque power train. We can say with certainty it will only have gimmick status next year. That may as well happen in 2011. Hopefully the new for 2013 formula will eventually see KERS take its correct role in the new drive concept.

[xpensive]

The technical challenge with KERS is still the energy-storage, accumulating as little as 400 kJ, think a 2000 W vacuum cleaner on for 200 seconds, obviously cost an arm and a leg last year with xotic batteries becoming consumables as I understand.

But first of all, with the difference in kinetic energy of a 700 kg object deccellerating from 250 to to 100 km/h being 1400 kJ, I would like
to see unlimited four-wheel generating-power, up to 2000 kW as we learned from Brembo thru WB on another thread, stored as again unlimited energy to be used at the driver's leisure. Then limit the ICE to 400 Hp and you would see some developments done.

However technically intriguing, this would needless to say drive development costs to xorbitant levels, probably limiting F1 to a manufacturer-only sport, which is not xactly what anyone wants. But boy, think about it, it would be like another CanAm series.