Mercedes GP MGP W01

[marcush.]

Marcush,

By setting soft setup to extract maximum one lap tyre performance would hamper the team during the race.
By having a harder setup, there is less rebound from the suspension which, if managed correctly will get you better and more predicatble tyre consumption.

Its a very plausible point though, as the fastest car in the paddock uses probably the softest setup in the paddock, the RB6.
Conversley Mclaren arent far off their pace and it appears their set up is rock hard at some tracks.

Speaking of soft and stiff is surely way too simplified but I don´t even think it
is a matter of springs and rebound damping but more a case of give or slag in the system that might do the trick.
As said before ,it seems to be interelated and it may well be RedBull can allow for a soft setup and counters this with high tire temps whereas Mclaren gets its work done with stiff suspension and lower tire temps.
Merc could be with temps and stiffness high ...and has no means of softening as they might loose too much aero if they soften the car up...explaining why they stick to what they have..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think Mercs problem is the tyre modeling.

In the link I posted Mclaren said they have been develping software for the last 12 years to reproduce highly reliable tyre modeling software. On top of this they have Bridgestones head of development on the books now!

Mercedes from what I gather do not have anywhere near this level of preperation on tyres. And when you think that tyres are probably the single biggest factor in F1, Mercedes will need to a) Change their tyre modeling system and or b) get an expert in that designs these things. Yea it costs money, but if Mercedes GP are serious about it, the investment will be well worth it.

[marcush.]

I think Mercs problem is the tyre modeling.

In the link I posted Mclaren said they have been develping software for the last 12 years to reproduce highly reliable tyre modeling software. On top of this they have Bridgestones head of development on the books now!

Mercedes from what I gather do not have anywhere near this level of preperation on tyres. And when you think that tyres are probably the single biggest factor in F1, Mercedes will need to a) Change their tyre modeling system and or b) get an expert in that designs these things. Yea it costs money, but if Mercedes GP are serious about it, the investment will be well worth it.

we are two in this opinion.
the article by Pat Symmonds in Racetech mag about tyres pays testimony to this.He starts of to thank michelin for all the insight they gave him about tyres in the years they worked together...so as I said before maybe its time for RB to get hold of the services of his old pal from Bennetton days..is he banned still ?

but who is the tyre guru at RedBull? or is it more by chance and car chararacteristics of the car that does avoid them having these sort of troubles?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I think the Red Bull is the sum of all parts, and not one in particular.
It appears to be good on tyres, more so in qualifying than in the race.

This however is clouded by many issues, the blown diffuser, trick suspension(if it exists), aero profile, and there is also speculation of the engines ignition retardation during qualifying laps, to smooth the airflow through the blown diffuer to extract extra tenths for very short periods of time.

So if the car is half decent on its tyres, with all these other additions it will of course look very quick.

Whereas Mercedes could actually have a peach of a car, yet are unable to extract anything out of it due to the nature its car uses its tyres.
Mercedes are throwing updates onto the W01 they know are worth a few tenths here and there, but he moment the car goes onto track its not translated into performance. Because the real problem of tyres continues to hamper them.

Saying all this, it would be very interesting indeed to see the W01 in its current guise perform in colder ambient temps. I think we could see genuine pace from it in these cooler conditions.
One big issue is that where its colder, like Spa, will suit the RB6 to perfection and not the W01 which has high drag.

Very complex issues for Mercedes to solve....

[marcush.]

i´d love to see the pattern if there was one for the different compounds vers ambient/track temp vers track surface in this season and how the relative performance of the different teams were ...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

i´d love to see the pattern if there was one for the different compounds vers ambient/track temp vers track surface in this season and how the relative performance of the different teams were ...

All tracks have been hot or warm apart from the wet races this season.
Thinking of cooler tracks, I know only of Spa, perhaps Silverstone on a non sunny day. Where else could there be a cooler track? Japan?

[bjpower]

Is it possible that the F duct ( or there version of it ) and the blown defuser make it a very difficult car to drive.

I know the older versions of the blown defuser would make the car sensitive to rev changes by the engine.

there were comments of Schumacher bouncing the rev limiter during quali.

an with the f duct as there is no driver interaction ( from what i understand ) it would activate by itself - not a good idea in high speed corners. and may not inspire confidence by the driver.

maybe the car is fast just not drivable ?

ps. im not saying tires are not a factor.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Coulthard's comments were very harsh.
Bouncing off the rev limit at the part of the track he was on is not abnormal for someone who is firstly new to the track and secondly trying to eek out extra tenths.
Bouncing off the limit for all of .2 to .5 seconds will be near as dammit as fast as change up then changing down in the sapce of 40 meters.
To say its sloppy or poor, is very very harsh. Maybe it was just a mistake?

Regards the updates, I think they are better off for having the F-duct and blown diffuser, but their potential is being halted by the continuous problems Mercedes are having with the tyres.

An easy comparison to give you an idea would be this:
The Brabus SL Merc V12 compared to the standard SL65 AMG. One is much tuned version of the other and cost alot more, but there is a huge flaw with the Brabus.
Its near enough the same car with more aero updates, slightly altered suspension and way more power. When compared back to back around a track, the Brabus cannot get away from its lesser brethren simply because it cannot use all its improvements due to the tyres. It needs to brake earlier, and use its power later out of corners because it will light up its tyres otherwise.

There is obviously different reason for the W01, but the gist of the matter is that Mercedes can hope that an update will give them 0.5 seconds a lap (due to wind tunnel testing or CFD) only to find they cannot measure the improvement because the tyres issue hasnt been resolved. And going faster will only make the problem worse when you think about it.....

[PNSD]

Talking about bouncing of the limiter, check out Hamilton's onboard lap at Turkey on the official F1 website.

Sorry for the off-topic post!

[A13EX_f]

Coulthard's comments were very harsh.
Bouncing off the rev limit at the part of the track he was on is not abnormal for someone who is firstly new to the track and secondly trying to eek out extra tenths.
Bouncing off the limit for all of .2 to .5 seconds will be near as dammit as fast as change up then changing down in the sapce of 40 meters.
To say its sloppy or poor, is very very harsh. Maybe it was just a mistake?

Regards the updates, I think they are better off for having the F-duct and blown diffuser, but their potential is being halted by the continuous problems Mercedes are having with the tyres.

An easy comparison to give you an idea would be this:
The Brabus SL Merc V12 compared to the standard SL65 AMG. One is much tuned version of the other and cost alot more, but there is a huge flaw with the Brabus.
Its near enough the same car with more aero updates, slightly altered suspension and way more power. When compared back to back around a track, the Brabus cannot get away from its lesser brethren simply because it cannot use all its improvements due to the tyres. It needs to brake earlier, and use its power later out of corners because it will light up its tyres otherwise.

There is obviously different reason for the W01, but the gist of the matter is that Mercedes can hope that an update will give them 0.5 seconds a lap (due to wind tunnel testing or CFD) only to find they cannot measure the improvement because the tyres issue hasnt been resolved. And going faster will only make the problem worse when you think about it.....

it's down to the choice of gear ratios so the teams fault for not noticing it on the telemetry in practice maybe

[marcush.]

i´m not convinced if the speed is not showing of the updates..i´d rather think as they improve their base ,their model just fits less and less and this is what eats up the advances...?
Its of couse simplified but why else would you not see the improvement?

unless you worked on an area wich does not have any impact on performance.

Obviously the F-duct has advantages in real world ..see Macs.

[ringo]

Mercedes are stubborn with their little fin on the engine cover. I don't see why they can't get with the program and use a full length shark fin, with a more simplistic F duct.
About the tyres and tyre models, Merc may well have the proper software and data, but remember there was a complete misunderstanding from the beginning of the bridgestone tyre. This is the engineers fault.
This misunderstanding led to the design of an inappropriate chassis. Unless the chassis changes, which it can't, then they will always be trying to build around the problem.

I think Nsmikle said it best, it's like sticking slicks on a dacia sandero and then trying to get them to work as if they were on a Ferrari Enzo. No amount of tweaking will get around the fact that the dacia has 65 35 weight distribution, no downforce, and that the chassis and suspension geometry is crap.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So because of the homologated rules Mercedes GP suffer.

Its what I think, otherwise we would be seeing a W01 B spec...which we have not.
Compare the latest car to the first machine we saw at valencia. The changes are miniscule for a car that even Brawn proffessed to having an "inherent issue with balance and weight".

The way the car has performed in light of these problems is quite remarkable actually. Just thought the change in wheelbase would solve the issue which it has evidntly not.

[marcush.]

ican´t see the problem with the tub,really not much different to what rb does....
within limits you can and they have changed suspension design.
so there is left:
maybe some issue with a wromh placing of fuel weight due to the driver too much forward ? maybe this accounts for a tad more cross section of the main hull?
the big issue is more likely the shapes of sidepods and flow management towards the beam wing taht is causing too much drag?

no i don´t think we are even close when taking this route.
slow is slow and it is slow in qualy and the race as well.There is no fake speed in these races .All that counts are laptimes in clean air if you are quick you are quick and thats genuine speed .And here it is not obvious that Merc lags behind.

[ggajic]

All that counts are laptimes in clean air if you are quick you are quick and thats genuine speed .And here it is not obvious that Merc lags behind.

True, but Red Bull has lower straight line speeds than McLaren. However great suspension design combined with aerodynamics helps them a lot..