How can teams resolve tyre issues?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Not wanting to douse particular F1 car threads with tyre related issues, I thought it would be good to get everyones thoughts and ideas on one thread.
I wanted to know what options are available to teams that currently have the tyre problems, namely Mercedes GP.

Some seem to think that its not entirely possible to eradicate an issue due to homologation rules. I'm one of these

Others that its totally possible if a raft of changes are made to the suspension ie geometery etc.

If a car is designed from the ground up to use its tyres a specific way, surely only a total overhaul would suffice to dial out the issue?

[speedsense]

In 2010 (and 2009) without testing available, completely changing a chassis design mid season, is at best a high risk investment in luck. Successful teams do everything possible to reduce luck and risk when it comes to engineering. Though if you are at the dull end of the stick and have nothing to lose, the risk may be worth it... Bolt on improvements are easily done during the testing times of practice 1,2,3. Putting a new chassis out there may take several races of development, with a car that if it doesn't work, you still have to race that weekend. IMHO

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Are bolt on additions not skirting around the issue? Surely getting to the root cause of the problem is the best way of dealing with the problem?
Mercedes have isloted their problem, but appear to be none the wiser for it.
Ferrari and Sauber have similar conundrums...

[speedsense]

Are bolt on additions not skirting around the issue? Surely getting to the root cause of the problem is the best way of dealing with the problem?
Mercedes have isloted their problem, but appear to be none the wiser for it.
Ferrari and Sauber have similar conundrums...

No, not always. Depends on the tire issue. Or the track issue- Low speed corners (mechanical grip) vs. medium speed corners (mechanical and aero grip) vs. high speed (mostly aero grip w/mechanical) And complied with the type of racetrack (street vs road course and the many types of them and finally the location. What you would do for Dubai would be different than for China. (chance of rain for instance)
If the problem is running throughout the range and the same problem at different types of track, then the chassis could be the issue.

In the case of 2010 with Bridgestone and next years change to Pirelli, the decision of a chassis change for reasons of Bridgestone's issues and your car, would be throwing money in the toliet if your in the bottom of the points chase. Nothing to be gained....Though a shot at winning the WDC would be a completely different matter.
Remember that Ferrari and Mclaren put themselves in this very predicament in 2008 and suffered for it in 2009...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Sure, but what can you do other than jack it all in for the following year?

Brawn knew full well in February what 2010 would bring. What can they do in the interim to make this car work its tyres better?
He has made mention of how some teams lucked into this years tyre specs, and he has said more of next years fixed weight distribution for all the teams.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 14320.html

[Jersey Tom]

Shouldn't need a "complete redesign" of a chassis to make the most of a tire set.

With good test data, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to set the tires up either.

Which leads me to believe...

[marcush.]

Shouldn't need a "complete redesign" of a chassis to make the most of a tire set.

With good test data, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to set the tires up either.

Which leads me to believe...

that teams put forward tyre issues for underperforming in an attempt to play down their lack of development abilities?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Marcush how does that explain the thick black lines developing on the W01 tyres after 8 laps?
Or the graining the drivers are always reporting back on.
I think Ross Brawn is big enough to admit it.

[DaveW]

It is curious that Brawn apparently thought that Bridgestone hadn't reduced the stiffness of the 2010 front tyres enough. He then instigated a suspension layout change that moved the centre of gravity (and the centre of pressure) aft, if reports are to be believed.

The change appeared to improve the performance of MS relative to NR but not, in retrospect, relative to the rest of the field - not in qualifying, anyway.

If front tyre temperatures are an issue for Mercedes, then I suspect the suspension change moved the centre of gravity in the wrong direction.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

It is curious that Brawn apparently thought that Bridgestone hadn't reduced the stiffness of the 2010 front tyres enough. He then instigated a suspension layout change that moved the centre of gravity (and the centre of pressure) aft, if reports are to be believed.

The change appeared to improve the performance of MS relative to NR but not, in retrospect, relative to the rest of the field - not in qualifying, anyway.

If front tyre temperatures are an issue for Mercedes, then I suspect the suspension change moved the centre of gravity in the wrong direction.

I was looking for the article on F1 fanatic and other F1 sites where Brawn pointed the finder at bridgestone at winter testing this year.
He said somthing along the lines of Bridgestone not being "brave enough" to make the tyre they promised.
If Brawn started early development on the W01 with tyre specs for 2010 from bridgestone, and they pushed the envelope with the specs only to find it isnt the case anymore, then they would be rightly peeved.

However I cannot find anything else on this story which is THE reason as to why Mercedes GP have problems right now.

Also DaveW, the change was also welcomed by Nico, who was suffering too, just dealt with the problem better than Schu. And with the pack closing in on Mercedes right now, I wouldnt say its becuase they lack updates, because they have plenty of these, just constant tyre issues hampering them at every turn.

[DaveW]

Also DaveW, the change was also welcomed by Nico, who was suffering too, just dealt with the problem better than Schu. And with the pack closing in on Mercedes right now, I wouldnt say its becuase they lack updates, because they have plenty of these, just constant tyre issues hampering them at every turn.

Agreed. Honda, Brawn & now Merc., with different drivers all having similar problems?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Also DaveW, the change was also welcomed by Nico, who was suffering too, just dealt with the problem better than Schu. And with the pack closing in on Mercedes right now, I wouldnt say its becuase they lack updates, because they have plenty of these, just constant tyre issues hampering them at every turn.

Agreed. Honda, Brawn & now Merc., with different drivers all having similar problems?

New tyre guy should come in if you ask me, Im not one for "Blame culture" but when a pattern emerges as it evidently has with this operation, you gotta cut your losses.
Im sure Brawn would do the deed as he hasnt garnered his reputation by being a softy.

What Im bemused by is Sauber are even starting to understand their tyres better. Why not Mercedes? The moment that three pointed star goes onto the car, the stakes are raised. Ross will know this too, just like to know what he has in mind because Stuttgart will not stand for these results.
Interestingly, Zetsche the MB MD, has called in a meeting of all Mercedes GP top brass, including drivers. Head banging session perhaps? He would do well to venture near the tyre department IMO

[Jersey Tom]

Shouldn't need a "complete redesign" of a chassis to make the most of a tire set.

With good test data, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to set the tires up either.

Which leads me to believe...

that teams put forward tyre issues for underperforming in an attempt to play down their lack of development abilities?

Eh maybe, to a degree. People are quick to point blame anywhere but on themselves. More importantly, would indicate to me that they don't have particularly good data on the tires. I wouldn't doubt it a bit. Some tire manufacturers are much more secretive with data than others to begin with.. and to be honest I'm not very impressed with Bridgestone's tire testing rig (if you want to nerd out on it, you can read about it here http://www.mts.com/downloads/Get_into_the_groove.pdf).

If that's the case, you pretty much slowly stumble your way into figuring the things out.. half by luck.

Bear in mind also.. people are making the assumption that Mercedes are bitching about tires, thus they're doing something wrong relative to everyone else. Could be that everyone is equally hosed and just don't care to share that fact with their competitors. That would be my approach.

Bear in mind also, that Bridgestone is essentially asked to bring inappropriate tires to the races.. at least from what they would have brought in an open competition scenario. Someone wanted "more interesting" racing, which apparently entails bringing tires that are on both ranges of the "really too soft" and "really too stiff" spectrum. Recall that previously, the prime and option tires were much closer to each other and were only subtle differences.

If you have, for lack of a better term on this forum, treads that are too "hard" then sure you might feel like you can never put enough energy in them to really make them come to life. Likewise, if you have treads that are too "soft" or delicate, they will grain and tear with very little or no provocation. If your balance or steering settings are off, it makes the situation that much worse.

[speedsense]

It is truly amazing to me, that last's year double title team, had little to none of the problems with tires and now tires are to blame? Have tires changed that much? Seems not for RB, Mclaren, or even Ferrari....
The Brawn had very good speed with a blown diffuser but burned up suspension and bodywork pieces at Spain.

IMHO, a problem that isn't that difficult to fix, Silverstone should have the pieces in working order. Aero is what I believe is the "source" of the problem with Brawn. At least with a tire problem (especially a spec tire), a driver can drive around it....with a chassis/handling problem the driver can also drive around it (Schumi has already proved he can drive around almost any problem)
BUT an Aero problem, there isn't a driver in the world that can drive around it, only changing/redesigning it, can fix it.....

[andrew]

I guess all they can do in-season is play about with the power delivery (is that the correct term?) so that the tyres are not being worn out too quickly. Either that or try and get more downforce from the wings so that the cars don't slide about too much.

A chassis redesign would be the way to go but doing this during the season with no testing would be difficult and time consuming. They are kind of screwed for this year but maybe the introduction of a new tyre supplier next year will level things a bit between teams.

If that fails they should check the tracking.