How can teams resolve tyre issues?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

It does seem the tyres are being used as an excuse by a team that also talked of struggling to get them to the right temperature last year.

All the teams got the same data fro Bridgestone, some made it work, others didn't. isn't that the point of the competition? What next, fixed gear ratios?

Personally, I think F1 should have more variables and hard to predict factors. That's where good engineering talent can find fertile ground.

We arent debating the reason, Mercedes readily admit they got it wrong for whichever reason.
What I would like to know is what can they do to make it better?
mep brings up a valid point on money, so harsh criticism of Mercedes/Brawn really would be an oversight considering their position last year.

[mep]

153 pages of spam and I should find there a F-duct now?
Poor me.
We must definitely reduce the amount of posts on this forum.

Regarding tires, at least we haven't seen anybody trying to get heat into them during a race like Brawns did several times last year.

[speedsense]

Just maybe the "problem" isn't with the car at all, but what's going on away from the car? Brawn compared to Ferrari, Mclaren and even RB is a small team with less funding. Depends on how much Mercedes has brought to the table. Mercedes had all of Mclaren's engineering dept to work from, but now how much of that have they invested in and to what level?
Ross Brawn had all of Honda's designing and dyno testing resources when he designed the first Brawn. The supercomputers and modeling/simulation programs may not have made it to Brawn. With less "tools" to work with, which also means less specialized people operating that equipment, the gaps of technology and virtual testing could have become more visible. For instance, choosing Pi Sim over Adams, for money reasons or a lesser tire contact patch machine over a rotating one.
Another point of contention, could be that some teams have become so strong in redesigning and using new parts that "adjusting" the package doesn't rank as high as it used to. Example more DF, change the whole wing package rather than an adjustment to the wings. Could be budget oriented.
Lastly, some teams maybe looking for that silver "bullet" rather than a combination of smaller improvements. Easy to miss the sweet spot or the "right" use of the contact patch. ..IMHO

[Jersey Tom]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.

Educated trial & error.

[Scotracer]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.

Educated trial & error.

This. I thought the answer would be pretty obvious...

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.

Educated trial & error.

This. I thought the answer would be pretty obvious...

The answer may appear obvious, but it certainly rankles Mercedes GP Sauber and to a lesser extent Ferrari.
Hardly bywords in amatuerism....

[speedsense]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.

Educated trial & error.

...and testing in a virtual world and very limited real world (time wise) testing. I wonder how many teams are testing all the way through a race weekend instead of just one or two practice sessions?

[Jersey Tom]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.

Educated trial & error.

This. I thought the answer would be pretty obvious...

The answer may appear obvious, but it certainly rankles Mercedes GP Sauber and to a lesser extent Ferrari.
Hardly bywords in amatuerism....

You try a dozen things, maybe 1 or 2 pan out. Some teams stumble on stuff quicker than others.

Sometimes you can throw money at things and solve em, sometimes not (Toyota)

[marcush.]

What can they do? Keep trying things until something sticks. Different inflation, different camber, different alignment, different steering settings, different shock packages... you name it.



You try a dozen things, maybe 1 or 2 pan out. Some teams stumble on stuff quicker than others.

Sometimes you can throw money at things and solve em, sometimes not (Toyota)

[/quote][/quote] please forgive the somewhat currupted quoting..

JT ,it amazes me to hear how reluctant they are to chnage things when they KNOW what they currently do ,does not...
To wait for the setup to come to them is kike asking a oracle...i ´d change everything until I´d get the tyres to work and then look how to make them live.
You first have to know if your speed is in the machine then you can go and try making moves to conserve the potential.
some teams seem to have a pseudo scientific ways of doing things .without data ,how on earth can I have a model that is working? Tires are ,in my view too less an area where you will be able to do everything by numbers crunching.It either works or you have to change things to get the desired reactions.To claim some
more important features of the car prevent you doing this is mixing up cause and reaction.If this is the case ...i´d say put a decent Nascar team into the merc pits and they will make the boat fly next race...

[Jersey Tom]

Here's a question-

How would you know when you've gotten the tires to "work"?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

JT

Very simple, in relation to your competitors.

[Jersey Tom]

Yea? If you run a 1'45.50" lap, and your competitor runs a 1'45.00" lap..

..how do you know how much is tire?
..how do you know how much is driver?
..engine?
..aero?
..wheel bearing friction?
..general track strategy (where you want to be fast, versus slow)

You could start to say that the low speed corners show how good a mechanical setup you have.. but there's still low speed downforce.. there's driver (huge!), yatta yatta yatta.

[marcush.]

I always thought tires would visually show their state....
on track ,it is more or less maximising longitudinal and cornering gs of course depending on your needs...
If your driver is 2m away from the best path i´d say it does not make sense to look into tyre usage optimisation..

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yea? If you run a 1'45.50" lap, and your competitor runs a 1'45.00" lap..

..how do you know how much is tire?
..how do you know how much is driver?
..engine?
..aero?
..wheel bearing friction?
..general track strategy (where you want to be fast, versus slow)

You could start to say that the low speed corners show how good a mechanical setup you have.. but there's still low speed downforce.. there's driver (huge!), yatta yatta yatta.

First off, its fairly common kniowledge that at the higher speeds its the aero thats doing most the work, especially through higher speed corners.
And by Mechanical grip, what you mean is chassis grip through tyres only.
Its scientific, Most teams in the pit lane could tell you to the final percentile where the grip or aero points come from.

And when Brawn says the problems are tyre related, why would he need to lie about that? He told it like it is...they screwed up the weight distribution anticipating a more "aggresive" tyre from bridgestone.
Thats called taking it on the chin.

Finally whats the difference in those lap times? Again very simple.
Minute corrections due to under or oversteer. Or possibly even tyre wear!

[mep]

Why they can't simply crap one of these tires mount them on a tire test rig and measure out all the data’s they need. They could even put a test rig on a truck and do the tests secretly over a GP week end. They should get a good idea then how they have to position the tire to the street to get the optimum out of it.
Some minor changes like can then be done on track to fit the current conditions.
Big mistakes like wrong wheelbase or weight bias should not happen anymore then.

There could also be the simplest way and just ask the tire supplier for datas.
I think there is no good reason why Bridgestone should not give them because every team uses the same ones anyway. If they don't give it test it yourself.