How can teams resolve tyre issues?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As if by magic, Lauda must be reading this thread!!!

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/ ... iki-lauda/

[xpensive]

...

Someone on this very site did allude to CFD and modeling software as "its only as good as the numbers being put in and taken out of it".

...

So, the problem here is the size of the standard deviation of parameters... as always.

At last some Engineerish terminology after astrology-like and "god only knows" postings on this thread, thanks beloved moderator.

Now, an equally engineerish follow-up question would be; "Kindly identify said parameters and their typical standard deviation?"

[marcush.]

...

Someone on this very site did allude to CFD and modeling software as "its only as good as the numbers being put in and taken out of it".

...

So, the problem here is the size of the standard deviation of parameters... as always.

At last some Engineerish terminology after astrology-like and "god only knows" postings on this thread, thanks beloved moderator.

Now, an equally engineerish follow-up question would be; "Kindly identify said parameters and their typical standard deviation?"

please ,expensive don´t start this .I hear that sort of language all day long
and every time I hear this- engineerish- I ask myself if the guy who resorts to this type of language is either trying to convince me he´s belonging to a elite group or he´s trying to make an impression ..either ways ,I don´t really care and
will not join in .

no thank you,not for me... it is for sure not making a better engineer out of you to choose terminology and this special kind of language so as no `lesser `mortals will understand what you are trying to say.. reminds me of solicitors.. also suspects..

so.. all frustration of this week has found a vent,thanks expensive I can no look forward to tomorrows qualyfying.. [-o<

btw -one of my main contacts these days at a famous (?) OEM in Stuttgart area has a favorite term :-typical- I count his use of this fav word on every meeting with him ..he never manged to score less than 10.. and I know him for 3 years now..so please forgive..

[mep]

please ,expensive don´t start this .I hear that sort of language all day long
and every time I hear this- engineerish- I ask myself if the guy who resorts to this type of language is either trying to convince me he´s belonging to a elite group or he´s trying to make an impression ..either ways ,I don´t really care and
will not join in .

I always wonder where you work?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Ok dudes,

Lots of Strawberry sprtizer with vodka cocktails that my fiancee will not drink, so my spirits are high so to speak!

Please can the thread be brought back into the "How can teams resolve tyre issues".

My team Mercedes Gp, suck basically. And its all due to the black things they put on the car.
Thus far, I have only had the very logical reason that their computer tech is off. Or, that their engineers are shite. Either way, Mercedes-Benz Gmbh will not stand for it.
So what CAN THEY DO TO CORRECT IT?

[Jersey Tom]

Well it depends what's wrong, man. I dunno. Collect data. Improve models. Re-visit assumptions.

[xpensive]

@ marcush;

Treading on tender feet there I guess, sorry about that, perhaps you prefer comments like the one above this one then?

I think it would be fantastic if someone from inside the tyre industry would care to share some knowledge on which parameters in tyre technology we are talking about here, beginning with what it means for Mercedes to make their tyres "work"?

If that wouldn't be ein bischen zu "engineerish" for your taste?

[marcush.]

naah..expensive,don´t worry ...I cab stand this with easy 364 days and 23 hours a year.. you just catched me in aweak moment,fair enough...

coming back to the point of the thread ,my intention was to highlight that in those
big OEM ,the people who are deemed to be experts tend to hide behind this engineeringbabble instead of admitting they don´t KNOW .simple as that.

So in reality Brawn has to face reality :they have not managed to get a handle on their issues and did not do a really good job in analysing their problems in 2009 nor in the season 2010 till now.
So really the first step must be to question their methods just how they tackle upcoming issues.In my view the problem solving was decided and started before they really knew the root courses for their performance issues.

So ..IF their problem is tyres ..then a top notch tyre specialist may be of help to understand the problem ,and this could lead to strategies solving the problems .I doubt you could bring one guy and tommorrow the issues are gone .

But I honestly believe they are not even close to this point to REALLY know what their problem really is /are.Apart from being slow ,of course...but then Fp3 is
over and we can see ...that all of a sudden the Mercedes is back in the game and
Macs is in the doldrums....
wich brings me personally back to the question ..IS it really tyres ? or is it the car is not working and because of this the tyres are not working...egg or henn ..your choice.

[xpensive]

@marcush again.

As an old fashioned engineer, in the germanic way if you wish, I have difficutlies to trust anthing I cannot measure with a scale or appreciate in SI-numbers. I know some moderators on this fine forum has more imagination than that, but that's me.

Give me stiffness numbers in everywhich direction, N/m please, shear-forces, temperatures or for god's sake, bring in the Shore-numbers when you're at it, but don't just tell me how to make the tyres "work" or how not to!

[marcush.]

@marcush again.

As an old fashioned engineer, in the germanic way if you wish, I have difficutlies to trust anthing I cannot measure with a scale or appreciate in SI-numbers. I know some moderators on this fine forum has more imagination than that, but that's me.

Give me stiffness numbers in everywhich direction, N/m please, shear-forces, temperatures or for god's sake, bring in the Shore-numbers when you're at it, but don't just tell me how to make the tyres "work" or how not to!

+1 my words .
unfortunatelly the teams won´t give away much more than those made up comments as we could not make the tyres work.
last years techno babbel was related to low tyre temps ,if you care to remember ..

my english maybe too low key ..but i never would say make the tyres work but :
working the tyres .. the intention here his to emphasise that forces are transmitted not only to the surface but as well through the carcass wich seems to be some of the issues they might face ....

but looking in Qualy today ...I´m not really convinced if it REALLY is tyres what they are having problems with......and therefore it is maybe not the time to ask for shore hardness or stiffness and choose the big magnifying lens but look into the overall approach instead of moaning around you´d build a different car with todays knowledge....of course you would ...you worked for six months with the thing and should now know it´s limitations ,at least for your means of response.
Wouzld not be the first time that someone else with a differetn approach finds something not available to you..

and ross brawns words about tyre usage in silverstone:
Interessanterweise gelang es Mercedes bisher an diesem Wochenende sogar, die Reifen optimal zu nutzen, was bisher eine der großen Schwächen war. Doch das könnte auch Zufall gewesen sein: "Wir haben nicht viel geändert. Es liegt wohl an der Strecke und an den Reifen, die für hier ausgewählt wurden", gibt Brawn zu und ergänzt, dass die Fahrer gegenseitig Einsicht in ihre Daten hatten, um auch auf dieser Ebene Fortschritte zu machen.

in other words:tyres work perfect,but they have not changed anything ...so maybe its luck or it is the track or the compound that is suiting them.. speaks volumes about their scientific approach..
my interpretation is : lots of sustained left right serious gs will work the tyre carcass harder and will avoid them underworking the tyre construction ....

[Belatti]

Now, an equally engineerish follow-up question would be; "Kindly identify said parameters and their typical standard deviation?"

To that request I would add:

"apart from all the parameters and their typical standard deviation, also kindly identify the covariances and their relatioships"

wich, by the way, I dont expect them to be linear...

So, to sum it up:

1) tyre guys dont know all of the above and they work from a "trial and error" approach, where the only thing that counts would be experience + memory + shrewdness

or

2) they wont give us their holy grail just for the sake of being a nice guy in a forum, besides it would be a rather complicated holy grail

[marcush.]

Now, an equally engineerish follow-up question would be; "Kindly identify said parameters and their typical standard deviation?"

To that request I would add:

"apart from all the parameters and their typical standard deviation, also kindly identify the covariances and their relatioships"

wich, by the way, I dont expect them to be linear...

So, to sum it up:

1) tyre guys dont know all of the above and they work from a "trial and error" approach, where the only thing that counts would be experience + memory + shrewdness

or

2) they wont give us their holy grail just for the sake of being a nice guy in a forum, besides it would be a rather complicated holy grail

from this you can derive that trying to figure up a hly grail formula does inevitably lead to shortcuts and simplifications that lead to certain decisions that do not match up with real world need s.That is not very important as long as your setting are in a plateau area -read area of low sensivity to change of parameter- but if you are close or already in an area of rapid changes the formula may lead to monumental faults.

[Belatti]

Holy grail doesnt neccesary means a formula or 10 formulas, but just to know the parameters you can manipulate plus the covariace relationships to know how to get things in the plateau you mention

[ringo]

The tyre guys at brawn need retraining. They have cracks in their foundation.
Maybe they should come up to speed by liaising with some recent ex bridgestone engineers.

[speedsense]

Trying to extract information from a tire company, even one that is sponsoring your team, is highly difficult.

The tire engineers, can only tell you what their company allows them to tell you.

However, a conversation with their compound engineer can be very enlightening as nobody seems to seek these guys out for any information and most of them are more than happy to talk about their job, as they never get to....