F1 Engine Ignition

[Pachoba]

I´m new here. I like this page.
I want ask on formula one ignition system detailed information aplied on actual 2.4 litre V8.

1.) What the generate electric energy for spark plug?
capacitor (capacitance ignition) or coil (inductive ignition)

2.) What is the source of energy?
car battery or electricity is generated when the engine is spinning or piezoelectric power supply

3.) What is the structure?
transistor or thyristor

4.) Will some changes since 2013 in ignition(controvert)?

I hope you help me.
Please excuse my bad english.

[gridwalker]

Hi there, welcome to the forum!

This is a great first post : unfortunately, I can't answer, but I will be keeping an eye on the thread as I'd quite like to know!

Any thoughts guys?

[Shrek]

I only know number 2 for certain

battery but it's very small and lightweight about 2 pounds because it doesn't have to start up the engine, i remember Steve Matchett on U.S. broadcast talking about it at least 4 or 5 years ago.

[WhiteBlue]

I´m new here. I like this page.
I want ask on formula one ignition system detailed information aplied on actual 2.4 litre V8.

4.) Will some changes since 2013 in ignition(controvert)?

There will almost certainly be changes in the next few years until the new formula is introduced presumably in 2013. Next year F1 cars will have a generator and big batteries again as all teams will most certainly revert to using the 2009 spec KERS systems.

There is also a pretty good chance that rules on generators may change in the next years in the run up to the formula change. KERS systems are likely to have more stored energy, more power, potentially start harvesting from the front wheels and therefore see different rules on electric generation.

[ISLAMATRON]

Cool, finally something new to talk about in the engine section...

1) pretty sure I saw coil on plug ignition on most the engines...

2) yes the cars have batteries, but they also have alternators which provide a majority of the onboard electrical power

3)got me, might want to search for more info on the McLaren SECU for an answer to that

4) hope so, they are talking about more Kers so maybe teams might run the ignition systms off that energy rather than an alternator... we shall see...but we have to wait until 2013 until this section of F1T ever comes back to life

[Richard]

The SECU specification can be downloaded from the FIA website http://argent.fia.com/web/appeloffre.ns ... penelement

[autogyro]

F1 ignition is much the same as the 1908 Alldays and Onions system I was looking at yesterday. That has no self starting system either and a small battery.
At least the Alldays has a bracket to fit a magneto as an option.

[WhiteBlue]

Hi AG, did that Onion have digital engine mapping? Or did they employ a footman who sat in an engine room and changed a bunch of pots to adjust things?

[Carlos]

White Blue - They might use a hand lever like this:
http://www.changjiangunlimited.com/tb93.htm
Very popular method the last 100 years and much in vogue today
I wonder if this is the ignition retarding method hinted at in the Red Bull thread?

[autogyro]

Hi AG, did that Onion have digital engine mapping? Or did they employ a footman who sat in an engine room and changed a bunch of pots to adjust things?

There computer system lived in the motor house and had a brain.
Bet you could not start an F1 car just by moving the advance retard lever.

[Pachoba]

I search as detective, because these information are secret.

Here i find some specifications about IndyCar and F1 engines:

Code: Select all

http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47399

In the past i find that, 3L V10 have CDI ignition(i think). After I think may F1 have CDI ignition. It is possible?
I do not know whether the charged capacitor for short time, because the engine have 158 burns per second. (19 000rev./60sec./2=158,33)

And:
I find on motorcycle forum that: engine with battery have transistor ignition(mostly).


AFTER SUMMARY:


1.) What the generate electric energy for spark plug?
capacitor (capacitance ignition - CDI)

2.) What is the source of energy?
car battery with alternator/dynamo

3.) What is the structure?
transistor

4.) Will some changes since 2013 in ignition(controvert)?
???(we can polemic)


What do you say? It may be ok?

[Edis]

In F1 the electrical power is supplied by a permanent magnet alternator much like is done on modern motorcycle. Unlike a modern conventional alternator, it is not dependant on the battery to supply power. Since it uses permenent magnets the output voltage also can't be controlled by the field strength of the rotor, so it is connected to an electronic voltage regulator.

I would suspect F1 engines use capacitive discharge ignition systems. The spark plugs are of the surface gap type.

Some specifications can be found on:
http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/
TAG310B is the basis of SECU

You can also check out their application notes about ignition systems
http://www.mclarenelectronics.com/mes_p ... ct_Ign.pdf

Of course, anyone who knows something about ignition systems would never claim that current systems "is the same as the 1908 Alldays and Onions system". The transistors and capacitors required to make the current systems became availible around the 1980'ties.

[alfasudz]

This is an old thread, but I'm interested to learn more about this topic.
My answers

1.) What the generate electric energy for spark plug?
coil (inductive ignition)

2.) What is the source of energy?
car battery with alternator

3.) What is the structure?
transistor, in most cases an IGBT

Part of the answer appears to be in this document link posted earlier.
http://argent.fia.com/web/appeloffre.ns ... finale.pdf

>>> 8 off inductive ignition drives

But we can look elsewhere, such as the Bosch Motorsport catalog from 2008, and search for "Single Fire Coil S16" or just search the document for "formula 1".
https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/ ... g_2008.pdf

You can also search the Bosch Motorsport catalog for 2013, search for "Single Fire Coil S19".
https://www.bosch-motorsport.com/media/ ... g_2013.pdf

Reading the description and specifications, it seems clear that these are very high performance inductive ignition coils, with coil on plug design, and in the case of the Single Fire Coil S19, rated to provide a 25A primary current with a 12V supply and a dwell time of just over 0.6 mS, or faster with a higher voltage.

There can be advantages of CDI, possibly faster rise times, useful for engines with forced induction and rich fuel/air mixtures, including alcohol fuels used in IndyCar and other series.

On the other hand, a modern inductive coil based system should be able to provide a longer duration spark, which is considered to be an advantage, especially when using lean fuel/air mixtures.

Disclaimer: The above is for 1989-2013 naturally aspirated cars, no idea what is used in post 2014 Formula One with Turbulent Jet Ignition (TJI) where the mixture in the pre-chamber can be quite rich.