Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[wesley123]

yes that is true, and then still mclaren is not miles off of the frrari, actually they are similair width. And as i stated it isnt alla about width, mclaren clearly comprimised width to get an much lower sidepod end.

At the mclaren the bodywork is simply molded over the parts, at the ferrari for example such thing isnt the case.

And also the undercut, those ofmclaren are much more undercut then others, of course not full length but on the start it simply is much tighter. The ferrari ismuch fatter in front view too and if we look at intake it is an battle btween mclaren Red Bull and Virgin who gotthe smallest intakes.

Also about the bulbous central section, it is actually very commonm almost all other cars have it too, i dont think it is even that much largr buit it just looks lik it because of the sidepod. Just like someone mentioned the red bulls beam wing is much higher wich is an optical illusion due to the diffuser size.

Afterall we can state that themclarn is quick on track, but out of it it isnt good at all, so many flaws in it, diffuser isnt fully optimized for example, it has an huge exit but it doesnt get enough air.

[donskar]

Seems like McLaren suffering from mechanical setup. Bumps disturb the car too much.
Ironically, new ultra-fast Silverstone seem to favor same car characteristics as Monaco.

I'd love to see some of our more technically astute members discuss this point. From my non-technical pespective, it seems aero would have little effect on riding curbs and handling bumps. For that I would think suspension setup / mechanical grip would be far more important. Comments?

[timbo]

Seems like McLaren suffering from mechanical setup. Bumps disturb the car too much.
Ironically, new ultra-fast Silverstone seem to favor same car characteristics as Monaco.

I'd love to see some of our more technically astute members discuss this point. From my non-technical pespective, it seems aero would have little effect on riding curbs and handling bumps. For that I would think suspension setup / mechanical grip would be far more important. Comments?

That's why I compared it to Monaco.
Interestingly, one could see that visually all cars did jump quite a lot on the bumps, but only on McLaren it caused front end to slip off so often.

[TheRMVR]

Seems like McLaren suffering from mechanical setup. Bumps disturb the car too much.
Ironically, new ultra-fast Silverstone seem to favor same car characteristics as Monaco.

I'd love to see some of our more technically astute members discuss this point. From my non-technical pespective, it seems aero would have little effect on riding curbs and handling bumps. For that I would think suspension setup / mechanical grip would be far more important. Comments?

That's why I compared it to Monaco.
Interestingly, one could see that visually all cars did jump quite a lot on the bumps, but only on McLaren it caused front end to slip off so often.

That could also be a result of the heavy winds on Silverstone today. But the Mclaren does look very stiff and bumpy. I never saw Hamilton make as many mistakes as he did today.

[timbo]

But the Mclaren does look very stiff and bumpy. I never saw Hamilton make as many mistakes as he did today.

Maybe that is something similar to Bahrain this year?
I wonder, maybe they have to increase their ride because of bumps too much and when they do, the floor loses much more than on other cars.

[myurr]

But the Mclaren does look very stiff and bumpy. I never saw Hamilton make as many mistakes as he did today.

Maybe that is something similar to Bahrain this year?
I wonder, maybe they have to increase their ride because of bumps too much and when they do, the floor loses much more than on other cars.

It was stated on the BBC coverage that the McLaren aero is very sensitive to rake - as in hide height changes at the rear relative to the front. I'm guessing that this makes them sensitive to ride height changes as the fuel burns off, hence having to run stiffer.

[timbo]

But the Mclaren does look very stiff and bumpy. I never saw Hamilton make as many mistakes as he did today.

Maybe that is something similar to Bahrain this year?
I wonder, maybe they have to increase their ride because of bumps too much and when they do, the floor loses much more than on other cars.

It was stated on the BBC coverage that the McLaren aero is very sensitive to rake - as in hide height changes at the rear relative to the front. I'm guessing that this makes them sensitive to ride height changes as the fuel burns off, hence having to run stiffer.

Makes a lot sense!
This should also make them nervous on the bumps in high-speed corners.

[segedunum]

This is something McLaren have had all season since Bahrain.

[ringo]

Their problem is not simmulation, it's were they are routing the gasses over the diffuser. The reason why they couldn't fix it in silverstone is that it requires some new parts.
These parts are the bridge wing and upper deck louvers. A simple re fabrication and they are all good.
I'll put up a pic of what i think is wrong.

[peroa]

Even if they bring the new BD for the next race, one issue is still the same since the start of the season. The car has to be set up stiffer than stiff. They have to fix that pronto.

[myurr]

Even if they bring the new BD for the next race, one issue is still the same since the start of the season. The car has to be set up stiffer than stiff. They have to fix that pronto.

Unfortunately I don't think that will be fixed for them until next season - it's a fundamental problem with the aero compromise they went for.

[wesley123]

yep, usch an thing cant be fixed that easily, it is one of the compromises(or rather say flaws) they made for the car.

And about the BD, it isnt as simple as others, the mclaren requires a complete repositioning of some of the parts. This is the reason mclarens coke bottle was smaller when they ran it, there is an cooling hole there wich is fundamental for the car(at least it seems).
I still dont see why they dont make use of different spots for cooling, for example the headrest, or the engine cover. It simply exits all out of the exhaust when they need to, such an part simply screws up the whole idea of the downsloaping sidepod. This might also be one of the flaws of the car.

As i said, the car looks great on track, but on the paper it isnt.

[ringo]

It's not a cooling hole, it's the signal pipe for the F duct.
The can reform everything back there, probably with the same ease/difficulty as doing a new front wing I suppose.

[lkocev]

But the Mclaren does look very stiff and bumpy. I never saw Hamilton make as many mistakes as he did today.

Maybe that is something similar to Bahrain this year?
I wonder, maybe they have to increase their ride because of bumps too much and when they do, the floor loses much more than on other cars.

It was stated on the BBC coverage that the McLaren aero is very sensitive to rake - as in hide height changes at the rear relative to the front. I'm guessing that this makes them sensitive to ride height changes as the fuel burns off, hence having to run stiffer.

I think this sound about right, it seems to make sence. People used to comment on how the MP4-25 appears to be able to follow other cars more closley. This suggests to me that it produces a bigger percentage of its total downforce from the floor, relative to perhaps Red Bull and Ferrari.

If we look at diffuser volume alone then I think everyone agrees the McLaren appears to have a higher diffuser volume and steeper ramp angle compared to RedBull and Ferrari. We know that wings are sensitive to yaw, and the floor is sentitive to ride height variations, so if the MP4-25's floor contibutes more to the total downforce on it than the RB6 or F10, then it should be more sensitive to pitch variation than the RB6 or F10. This should lead the team to using a harder setup to reduce pitch variation.

At Albert Park I had a tour of the garage the McLaren mechanics were using to do work on the MP4-23 that was used for the ultimate speed comparison demonstation. Naturally I got to speak with some of the engineers and one of the guys said to me how he loved working on the 23 because it was such an easy car to setup. He said to me that it had a very wide 'sweetspot' and that they could set it up a little bit outside the optimal zone and it would still be quick. He also said to me that it was quite difficult to setup the 25, that its 'sweetspot' was very narrow, and that it was particularly difficult to set it up to ride kerbs well.

At the time I couln't put the connections together, but now it seems that this years car, was compromised right from the initial design stages to take full advantage of the double-deck diffuser, making the floor more effective. Perhaps this has constrained the team to less than ideal suspension setup. Who knows, I'm probably wrong, but I don't I'm too far off the mark.

[myurr]

I always thought that the one good thing Alonso did for McLaren was bring the philosophy that he'd rather have a car that works over a wide range of conditions and that is drivable than one that was slightly faster but on a knife edge setup wise.

Driver confidence would make up the speed difference more often than not, but it looks like they've forgotten that philosophy with this years car.