Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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doopie2you
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:Image

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The heave spring in the middle is easy to see.
The other 2 springs stick out of the bellcranks. These are the torsion bars speedsense mentioned. The dampers for both sides are ordinary ones (no rotary damper or an inerter)The anti roll bar is another torsion bars located below the solid bar that connects right and left side. The anti roll bar itself is therefore not visible on this picture. The anti rollbar can move freely with the middle spring but when just one side goes up or down it will twist.
Also notice how the wishbones are attached to the gearbox. They don't have any ball joints. It is just the flat end itself that flexes. Right of the bellcrank you can see some small black sticks. These are sensors who measure the suspension travel.
That is one complicated picture :lol: But thanks for posting it, with your explanation I can follow it more!
What does IDK means?? (someone) i dont know (other dude) OMG no one knows

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
doopie2you wrote:Does somebody got a video, or picture of the ARB on a car, when it works. So i can see how it works. I can't really understand how it works :oops: ( Dumb i know!)

6 Springs :shock: Where do they put all those springs :shock:
6 Springs - a torsion bar spring for each wheel plus a 'third spring' at each end.

The third spring is there purely to carry the additional loads from the aero downforce; the idea is that the wheel springs (the torsion bars) can better react to individual bumps with this set up.
...and Rear ride height, Rear squat, Rear heave control for the spring and the isolation of the dampening effects as . Allows softer springs to be run, as the before mentioned items are removed as part of the job of the "normal" springs AND same can be said for the dampeners. As now there are six...uh, sorry J dampener makes 7
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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Guys, I think I just figured this out,

where's the J dampener?

there's is one and it has to be connected to both wheels to work and would show the sway bar.... inside the case?....
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

ReubenG
ReubenG
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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speedsense wrote: Now weld the shaft to the top of the T, then you have an ARB and the only way this can be anti roll.
IMHO
If you fix the T-bar to the top of the heave spring/damper (either by welding or a splined shaft) then the heave spring / damper can be loaded with a point moment. I don't think this is good for the piston and seals inside the damper.

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mep
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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I see your point speedsense but I think it makes no sense to build something like this without using the ARB function. I guess they can use both options: Run the car with and without ARB.
You want another view? Ok, why not.
I think the tube is big enough to be an antirollbar.
You can see the hole in fact is squared.
The squared section also doesn’t need to be on top in can be located lower also.
Below you see some elements with bigger diameter between them is some black piece. I wonder what they are for.
As far as I know the team said it is an ARB and there is no obvious reason why not to place one exactly there.

Image

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Of interest, though is the center of the bell cranks. These are the torsion springs, and if they are connected, from side to side, inside the trans case, they would function not only as springs, but an ARB as well. However they would need some sort of independence from each other yet become connected in roll.
I also don't believe this. Reasons:
-There is no space between because the gearbox and differential needs it.
- it would be very difficult to get access to the ARB to replace it.
- the design would be to complicated
- The T-rod already needs the space and it's easy to replace it in this position.
The t-rod can easily be used as ARB.

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mep
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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speedsense wrote:Guys, I think I just figured this out,

where's the J dampener?

there's is one and it has to be connected to both wheels to work and would show the sway bar.... inside the case?....
As I already said there is no inerter.
With your live long experience in motorsport you should have noticed that.
:lol:

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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ReubenG wrote:
speedsense wrote: Now weld the shaft to the top of the T, then you have an ARB and the only way this can be anti roll.
IMHO
If you fix the T-bar to the top of the heave spring/damper (either by welding or a splined shaft) then the heave spring / damper can be loaded with a point moment. I don't think this is good for the piston and seals inside the damper.
Many, Many chassis' are exactly this way. Don't forget the ARB method of a T bar is through the action of twist the shaft. The dampener heim joint would isolate it front the twisting of the bar. As long as the bar doesn't "lean" one way or the other from resisting roll, it won't bind, but merely relocate the bearing in the dampener..
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:
speedsense wrote:Guys, I think I just figured this out,

where's the J dampener?

there's is one and it has to be connected to both wheels to work and would show the sway bar.... inside the case?....
As I already said there is no inerter.
With your live long experience in motorsport you should have noticed that.
:lol:
Against the rules? Have they outlawed the j dampener or that this car does not have one?
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

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mep
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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It just doesn't have one.
Its possible they didn't put it there to avoid pictures of it.
BTW I think the middle spring/damper unit can be replace by one.
It connects then both sides.
On the pics you can't see the typical helix slot on the piston rod.
Apart from that the inerter looks like normal damper.

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:I see your point speedsense but I think it makes no sense to build something like this without using the ARB function. I guess they can use both options: Run the car with and without ARB.
You want another view? Ok, why not.
I think the tube is big enough to be an antirollbar.
You can see the hole in fact is squared.
The squared section also doesn’t need to be on top in can be located lower also.
Below you see some elements with bigger diameter between them is some black piece. I wonder what they are for.
As far as I know the team said it is an ARB and there is no obvious reason why not to place one exactly there.

Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us Excellent, much better picture. Though not the same piece as the other picture (Is this the same car?), this one has the square hole the other doesn't.
As the T piece is in double shear for the dampener, you notice that the bearing for dampener is very large, my guess is that it's probably for the squared inter shaft and round bearing on the outside. Very similar (in size) to a self aligning bearing, except for the square part inside. self aligning bearings are common in use where the application has the potential for bind.
Both the upper and lower piece of the T, would need to be square holed as having only one (on top or bottom) the mechanism would bind and lean or tilt, binding the whole unit.
BTW and I should point out, what you don't see, is the T Bar is actually a I bar, as the bottom, is also a T, which for ease of changing the roll rate, is also a square hole, and simply changing the shaft out (with one larger or smaller) changes roll resistance...

yes, this shaft is large enough and much larger than the other ones I've seen.
The first picture is nothing like this one, and mostly likely not a sway bar.

Don't quite know what the black round thing is under the T however.


Of interest, though is the center of the bell cranks. These are the torsion springs, and if they are connected, from side to side, inside the trans case, they would function not only as springs, but an ARB as well. However they would need some sort of independence from each other yet become connected in roll.
I also don't believe this. Reasons:
-There is no space between because the gearbox and differential needs it.
Depends on case design, there are enough cars in the world with suspension pieces running through the trans case.
- it would be very difficult to get access to the ARB to replace it.
Not an impossible design however,
- the design would be to complicated
Everything about F1 is making something that is complicated and making it simple to use and they use it well.
- The T-rod already needs the space and it's easy to replace it in this position.
The t-rod can easily be used as ARB.
yep,exactly.... which I think is the reason the first picture isn't an ARB and the second one is, one car isn't using one, the other is....
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

speedsense
speedsense
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:It just doesn't have one.
Its possible they didn't put it there to avoid pictures of it.
BTW I think the middle spring/damper unit can be replace by one.
It connects then both sides.
Would only work in a longitutal movement and from what I understand about it, needs to work all the time, especially in roll..
On the pics you can't see the typical helix slot on the piston rod.
Apart from that the inerter looks like normal damper.
"Driving a car as fast as possible (in a race) is all about maintaining the highest possible acceleration level in the appropriate direction." Peter Wright,Techical Director, Team Lotus

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mep
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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Both pictures are from the same car taken within a few seconds.
So on both pictures you see a ARB. If you zoom into first pic you can also see the squared hole.
Would only work in a longitutal movement and from what I understand about it, needs to work all the time, especially in roll..
From pictures with inerter I say they do only work parallel to the heave spring.
Makes sense to me I don't see a good reason to use a inerter for roll.

Regarding the black piece.
One possible idea comes to my mind. Maybe they add half shell metal pieces with bigger diameter to fine tune the ARB. By adding them with different length they make the ARB stiffer. The black piece might be just a cable binder who holds two shells together. The bigger spot is the head with a short cutted end.

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Pierce89
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Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:Both pictures are from the same car taken within a few seconds.
So on both pictures you see a ARB. If you zoom into first pic you can also see the squared hole.
Would only work in a longitutal movement and from what I understand about it, needs to work all the time, especially in roll..
From pictures with inerter I say they do only work parallel to the heave spring.
Makes sense to me I don't see a good reason to use a inerter for roll.

Regarding the black piece.
One possible idea comes to my mind. Maybe they add half shell metal pieces with bigger diameter to fine tune the ARB. By adding them with different length they make the ARB stiffer. The black piece might be just a cable binder who holds two shells together. The bigger spot is the head with a short cutted end.
The inerter does only work n heave. "j-damper" means jounce damper. Heave and jounce are the same thing.
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RH1300S
RH1300S
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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mep wrote:
Image

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Forgive me if I have missed something. The way I read that image is that the 'T' bar operates the third spring when BOTH sides of the car go into bump together. A single wheel action would leave the third spring alone and would in fact produce an exact opposite action in the opposing wheel (one wheel goes into bump forces it's partner into droop).

The bar sticking down into the casing surely has a pivot point that affects the rising or falling rate of the third spring depending on it's angle relative to the angle of the spring body.

If there is an ARB it is well and truly hidden from view if it's there at all.

What there could be is an ARB linkage at the foot of the centre pivot post - but I am fairly sure the post itself won't act as the ARB spring. Having said that I think an ARB system attached like that would be self-defeating and tie up something or other elsewhere in the system.

Just a thought - with an arrangement like that wouldn't you set your roll and single wheel bump stiffness with the torsion bars (wheel springs) and adjust 'heave' with the third spring? I.e. why have an ARB at all?




On a separate point of interest - the 'blade connections' for the A-Arms. I was lucky enough to have a chat with a chap who designs F1 rear suspensions (from the A-Arm inwards to include all the linkages). The team he works for no longer use the blade connections - the reasons are that it is easier to make a strong A-Arm with a spherical bearing(they are doing something quite clever at the joint end) but most importantly the precise pivot point can vary with a blade connector which makes predicting the geometry 'interesting' to say the least.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Where is the Anti Roll Bar located on a F1 car?

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I do not see any need for an ARB.
The connection between the left and right linkage through the T bar effectively controls roll and the center vertical pivot rod (which probably connects to a transverse torsion bar)is mounted in a slot, which allows adjustment for the droop reaction on one side caused by the bump on the other.
You would adjust this effect and then re adjust the third spring rod length to keep that set where needed.