Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Richard
Richard
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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That wing will be vibrating/oscillating a lot under load, we can see that with the onboard camera footatage. The car is also crashing over teh kerbs, so that would add to any oscillation. So it might just be that a picture a fraction of a second later shows inverse arrangement, tight cables on the nearside, loose on the offside.

I suppose that if there is an nearside/offside effect, it could be that the roll of the car moves the offside end closer to the ground, generating more downforce. Meanwhile the nearside is lifted up and that breaks the ground effect downforce. The combination results in rotation about the centreline?

RacingManiac
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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vibration I think is the most likely cause....its a curb pic, and we've all seen the super slow-mo of how much this thing moves.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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RacingManiac wrote:Would this also be the "anti-f-duct/stalling slot gap" design though, since I assume the wing makes more downforce as it droops lower and also makes more drag. And most likely it will be drooping the most on a straight, where downforce is really not that necessary?
And where did RB struggle earlier in the year? Top speed on the straights. Which suggests they were generating excessive downforce there. In the corners they were benefitting greatly but on the straights they were losing slightly. As F1 cars are all about cornering speed the net result was better lap times.
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forty-two
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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richard_leeds wrote:The other interesting feature is that this is variable with speed. Assuming the best effect is with the wing as low as possible, then you'd want it to droop at with relatively low speed. Then stop dropping so it doesn't hit the ground at higher speed.
It's a little bit paradoxical really. It's as if the wing is behaving exactly the opposite way to how it should!

As has been said by other posters though, perhaps this is a loss RB are happy to take as it makes them much faster through the mid-high speed corners.
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Atlanta
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Re: Red Bull RB6

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http://twitter.com/Formula1Home/status/19655924762

#F1 Hockenheim (Comparative) Mclaren non flexing front wing http://bit.ly/bkXwTQ Red Bull flexing front wing http://bit.ly/dwTGev

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Image

aral
aral
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Re: Red Bull RB6

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Atlanta wrote:http://twitter.com/Formula1Home/status/19655924762

#F1 Hockenheim (Comparative) Mclaren non flexing front wing http://bit.ly/bkXwTQ Red Bull flexing front wing http://bit.ly/dwTGev

Image

Image
Not a ery good poto on which to base an argument. Look closely at the two photos. the entire Red Bull is considerably lower than the McLaren. Either the aero is pushing the RB down more, or else they are in a braking mode and the McLaren is not. Either way, in relation to the floor, there is NO evidence of flexing, at least not in this photo

Shrek
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Re: Red Bull RB6

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remember the Red Bull most likely have a softer suspension settings that the McLaren
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Marco Alves
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Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Photos from the last GP:

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Image

Front wings of Ferrari and Red Bull are flexible but FIA ad allowet, now acording Martin Whitmarsh McLaren will copy.

myurr
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Re: Red Bull RB6

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gilgen wrote:
Atlanta wrote:http://twitter.com/Formula1Home/status/19655924762

#F1 Hockenheim (Comparative) Mclaren non flexing front wing http://bit.ly/bkXwTQ Red Bull flexing front wing http://bit.ly/dwTGev

Image

Image
Not a ery good poto on which to base an argument. Look closely at the two photos. the entire Red Bull is considerably lower than the McLaren. Either the aero is pushing the RB down more, or else they are in a braking mode and the McLaren is not. Either way, in relation to the floor, there is NO evidence of flexing, at least not in this photo
I think that picture indicates very clearly an upside down U shape for the Red Bull wing, looking at the leading edge across the whole span, compared to a much flatter shape for the McLaren. That could be because they went over a bump or something, so a frame by frame analysis of a video would be better, but it's a pretty good start. We've already seen clear video evidence of the rear wing on the Red Bull flexing backwards, and have seen a video that could show the front wing flexing as well. Chances are that something is going on.

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747heavy
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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forty-two wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:The other interesting feature is that this is variable with speed. Assuming the best effect is with the wing as low as possible, then you'd want it to droop at with relatively low speed. Then stop dropping so it doesn't hit the ground at higher speed.
It's a little bit paradoxical really. It's as if the wing is behaving exactly the opposite way to how it should!

As has been said by other posters though, perhaps this is a loss RB are happy to take as it makes them much faster through the mid-high speed corners.

Yes, it may is on first thought, but there could be a little bit more to it:

Let´s assume for the moment that the RBR and Ferrari front wings bend downward at the ends, making the endplates and outer wing sections run closer to the ground.
Why would they do it, when this will mainly happen at high speeds (therefore on the straights as well)?

Running the wing closer to the ground will make them more efficient. Means it will produce more downforce for the same amount of drag (better L/D ratio). This will help in the medium and fast speed corners, so it´s an advantage.
It may produces more downforce on the straights as well, where the downforce is not really needed, but as it (normally) does not increase the drag, it does not hurt either. So there is maybe not that big an disadvantage.
On the other hand, the extra downforce on the straight, could be used to "work" the front tires a bit more, creating perhaps a little bit more temperature, which is maybe not a bad thing, considering the 2010 tire situation.
If the wing becomes more efficient, closer to the ground (producing more DF), they are maybe able to run the wing at a slightly lower angle of attack, therefore getting the same downforce as before, but reducing the drag.

Surely a F1 front wing is much more complex as a single/simple aerofoil, but I would think that the underlying concepts are still true. Here are some examples out of the aviation world, to illustrate the effect. Notice the shape of the wingtips.
This plane is designed to fly in close proximity to the gound/water making use of the groundeffect. (for the aeroplane, this means creating more lift for a given amount of drag)

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Lift/Drag relationship for a wing
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The FIA keeps there options open, to clamp down on any too creative interpretation of the rules.

3.17.8 In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.15 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to
introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.


So either they let people go down this route now, which means everybody has to try and copy the concept and spending extra money and maybe risking some wing failures in places like Monza.
Or they come up with a stricter load test after Hungary, to keeps things in check.
They have both options.
As much as I respect and admire the creativity of the guys at RBR and Ferrari, IMHO the later option is the more sensible one, from a cost and safety perspective.
The RBR and Ferrari guys have had there advantage, fair enough, but now, they should stop the thing, before it get´s out of hand.
At the end everybody will copy it, like the F-Duct,DDD and EBD, it will just cost extra money and nobody will gain a huge advantage. Some will be able to copy it faster then others, but at the end of the day, everybody will find a way to do it.
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n_anirudh
n_anirudh
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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The F1 wings work differently as compared to an aircraft wing.

They are low aspect ratio wings, with a mandated section where the 2 supports attach to the nose cone and I believe can be considered as cantilevered sections which deflect downwards and rearwards at high speeds.

Ground effect is significant only within a particular range of heights above the ground. usually between 0.05 to .125 chord lengths of the wing [This varies with multi-element airfoils]. F1 cars would lose downforce once operated outside a range and the felx would be detrimental.

3.17.1 Bodywork may deflect no more than 10mm vertically when a 500N load is applied vertically to it 800mm forward of the front wheel centre line and 795mm from the car centre line. The load will be applied in a downward direction using a 50mm diameter ram and an adapter 300mm long and 150mm wide. Teams must supply the latter when such a test is deemed necessary.
Note that the FIA states that there is only a downward deflection test.

kalinka
kalinka
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Does anyone have an actual picture of front wing testing ? I mean we should see exactly where the force of 500N is applied (and how ), then we may sort out how the wing can flex and comlpy to the rules in sam time...
Or can someone make a drawing of the test, where we should see how far the testing point is from the end of the FW endplates....
795mm from the car centre line seems to me that it's pretty much on the edge of the FW i think...or am I wrong? I can't find now exactly how wide is a front wing by regs....

n_anirudh
n_anirudh
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Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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F1 cars are 1800 mm==900mm on either side of the car centerline

Image

I believe the mounting point for the load would be somewhere close to that region.
and 500N downward load and a deflection of 10mm at that point.
Last edited by n_anirudh on 28 Jul 2010, 12:16, edited 1 time in total.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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you can have the wing quite flexi in that point 795 mm from the centreline without risk to fail the test ...the tested area actually is the hingepoint,right?
very clearly to be seen in the design of the ferrari Wing and possibly the endpoint of the foremost slot in RBs front wing ,also indicating a step in stiffness distribution..

kalinka
kalinka
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Location: Hungary

Re: Flexible wings controversy 2010

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Thanks n_anirudh for the drawing.

That seems to me fair close to the ends of FW. I can't imagine that the remaining 105mm can significantly bend downward under load....but who nows..
I have a weak theory,that maybe the the whole wing is rotating clockwise under load, hence the forward pointing part of the wing would come closer to the ground...In this case the FIA load test would pass, because they don't apply forward force to the wing...but again, if this is the case, you have to see non-horizontal endplates on high speed shots instead of inverse U shape so...I'm confused :)