Hungarian GP 2010 - Hungaroring

[ahmedvortex]

Well said 747heavy! The moderators usually delete inappropriate remarks. The rule of the board and the reasonable thing to do is respecting each other, regardless of the opinion other people have. Sensible people know that and will have their own opinion of those who cannot be bothered to show respect.

I'm sure we can do better than that. The least that you can do is to stop trolling the board with a justification for that manoeuvre and insulting peoples' intelligence.

In reality what you're saying is that if Rubens tries to overtake he's being dangerous, because that's all he's done there. You're not just trying to justify Schumacher's move, which is one thing in itself and you can certainly have views on, but you're also trying to say that Rubens is being dangerous at the same time. That's just madness I'm afraid. I'm at a loss to explain that any other way.

I don't think anybody tried to insult your intelligence, segedunum and certainly not the board's intelligence. One can easily have split opinions about Rubens Barichello's pass on Schumacher and be completely sane of mind. I see that your offending remark is now removed and that tells a lot about who is discussing things and who is misbehaving or trolling.

I have never justified Schumacher's driving in this thread. While the race was still running I have said that Schumacher deserves a penalty for not leaving Barichello enough room. Everybody can check that. Link to my post

It was then argued by the admin of this board that Schumacher made multiple moves on the start/finish straight by changing his line before Barichello took a dive to the inside. Still foto evidence posted by me and video evidence posted by Catalyst

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIJLRbU-lDI[/youtube]

show that such reports about Schumacher changing his lines are in error. As the next picture clearly shows



Barichello drives his car on a straight into a gap that points directly into the wall. I'm not alone in the opinion that a racing driver in the seventies would have never done such a thing. It would have been potentially suicidal in one of the old cars to rely on someone else for space. And that is someone who is clearly ahead and may not have seen you or isn't expecting to have to give up his line on a straight piece of tarmac to make place. Place for you which you have not had in the first place, that is.

What follows next is a provoked dangerous move by Schumacher that earned him a penalty which I support and have supported before. Again a sane and calculating driver in a fragile old car would not have pushed his fellow driver within ten centimeters of a concrete wall. That is a bad risk to take for your life and for your fellow driver's life even when he did something foolish in the first place that provoked you. For me such thinking is the yardstick for clean and fair driving.

Schumacher should have steered left to give Rubens more room. Rubens should never have gotten more than half his car off the track and Schumacher still would have made his point that Barichello was driving dangerously. So I think in that situation Michael should have left more room and should have made a complaint about dangerous driving to race control. I recon that the stewards would have looked at it after the race and Rubens would have got the penalty if one was given.

That essentially is my considered opinion. It is supported by all the evidence that we have seen so far. I do not expect that I have to defend my mental health or my forum user status for taking that view.

i was saying the same things in another forum , the racetrack is limited by the white lines , and in the draft phase , the distance between schumi and the white line was lowering , and not enough wide for rubens car , how did rubens think to manage an overtake in such area !!

[johnny99]

I agree with you WB. Some people watch racing, and some people do it. If one of my drivers let a compeditor up the inside like that, I would slap him.

John


[/quote] I did not defend Schumacher. Pay a little more attention, please. And the classic passing maneuver on a straight is not pointing your car into a pit wall and relying on the other driver to yield to your move. If you have no space on the inside simply do not go there.[/quote]

[Pedro]

Pit-stop summary:


Stints:

Green circlet = super-soft (option); black one = medium tyre compound (primary)

Source: F1news.cz
http://f1news.cz/novinky/35381-v-boxech ... i-mclaren/

[WhiteBlue]

Schumacher wasn't actively driving into Barichello today. Barichello was putting himself into a wedge aimed directly at the pit wall.

"...wasn't actively driving into Barichello" (sic). Brilliant! A text book example of blind loyalty.

@ Gary

I'll try to take you seriously and give you a chance to make your point for a better learning experience. So let us go back to the point where Barichello started his move and did not have an overlap.



I do have some video evidence from several perspectives which I can analyse in slow motion. I can tell you with certainty that Schumacher was driving in a straight line at that point. He kept that line and opened it up in the end to let Barichello just enough space off the track to escape the pit wall. He never changed his line towards Barichello. He only changed it away from him.

Even from the one picture above we can see that Rubens drove into a space that was not there and relied on Schumacher to yield. Schumacher did not yield enough to let Rubens pass on track. It created massive danger, true and that earned him a punishment. But Rubens should at least have been given a reprimand for endangering both drivers in the first place.

I would like to know where you disagree. Do you disagree with my view that Schumacher yielded but not enough? Or do you think that Schumacher changed his line into Barichello? Or do you think that the attacker is entitled to stick his nose inside and the defender must yield regardless of the line he had before the attack?

I would be interested to clarify that point in order to improve the general learning process here.

[timbo]

I do have some video evidence from several perspectives which I can analyse in slow motion. I can tell you with certainty that Schumacher was driving in a straight line at that point. He kept that line and opened it up in the end to let Barichello just enough space off the track to escape the pit wall. He never changed his line towards Barichello. He only changed it away from him.

OK.
So he let Rubens dive inside but started moving into him after that?
You think it is better WB?
I'd say if he did that, it is even more dangerous/cynical move.

[myurr]

I do have some video evidence from several perspectives which I can analyse in slow motion. I can tell you with certainty that Schumacher was driving in a straight line at that point. He kept that line and opened it up in the end to let Barichello just enough space off the track to escape the pit wall. He never changed his line towards Barichello. He only changed it away from him.

OK.
So he let Rubens dive inside but started moving into him after that?
You think it is better WB?
I'd say if he did that, it is even more dangerous/cynical move.

That's the thing - he left enough room for Rubens to start the move but then continued to shut the door even when it became dangerous. Thankfully he's been punished.

WhiteBlue, do you think the stewards got it wrong?

[nipo]

Just wanna talk about the race in general...

I think it is hardly the first time Schumacher has done something that looks REALLY bad on track, is it? A few races earlier I remember he pushed Massa in a similar manner. Well-deserved penalty I would say, regardless of whether Rubens was a bit too optimistic (I didn't feel so during the race, but then again I haven't been studying the move in detail).

Credit to Webber whom acknowledges the win as a bit of a gift (which it partly is). I think he earned his luck by putting in consistent laps, but I suppose it was relatively easy for him. A very consistent drive by Alonso, aided by the track as he says, but still very brave to fend off Vettel in a much quicker car for 30 laps. I tend to believe it when he said he felt like a backmarker.

On the other hand, I'm not sure if this race can tell a little bit more about Vettel's ability to pass. People here and elsewhere have pointed out that Seb tends to win from pole, and that, more importantly, his racecraft in terms of passing manouvers is not really up there. For the 30 or so laps he was stuck behind Alonso, he was never really close enough and never looked like a proper threat to the car in front. He seems to lack the tactical ability to plan an attack and give serious pressure, even with a much quicker car. I know he's only much quicker than Ferrari over S2 but the pace advantage he had was maybe over 1s so perhaps there's no excuse?

His engineer actually said "You are not faster than him"...

Compare that to Barrichello's moves on Schumacher. Even before he overtook, he looked serious enough and was constantly putting good pressure on Michael to do spotless exits out of the last corners - something the latter eventually failed to keep up.

[WhiteBlue]

I do have some video evidence from several perspectives which I can analyse in slow motion. I can tell you with certainty that Schumacher was driving in a straight line at that point. He kept that line and opened it up in the end to let Barichello just enough space off the track to escape the pit wall. He never changed his line towards Barichello. He only changed it away from him.

OK.
So he let Rubens dive inside but started moving into him after that?
You think it is better WB?

No timbo, that is not at all what I think has happened. Please look at the picture. Rubens was already in a trap if he travelled from there in a straight line. He would have collided with the pit wall. At that point Schumacher had to yield and evade to the left to let Barichello round the pit wall. Schumacher did not move into Barichello, he actually evaded but not strong enough to let Barichello stay on track. That is what I think.

[timbo]

Please look at the picture. Rubens was already in a trap if he travelled from there in a straight line.

Is Schumacher driving parallel to the pit-wall?

Schumacher did not move into Barichello, he actually evaded but not strong enough to let Barichello stay on track. That is what I think.

How he "evaded" if he continued to move to the right?
He only moved left to get to the braking zone.
And his inability to control Rubens on the better breaking line shows why the idea that Rubens could take him on the left is BS.

[WhiteBlue]

I do have some video evidence from several perspectives which I can analyse in slow motion. I can tell you with certainty that Schumacher was driving in a straight line at that point. He kept that line and opened it up in the end to let Barichello just enough space off the track to escape the pit wall. He never changed his line towards Barichello. He only changed it away from him.

OK.
So he let Rubens dive inside but started moving into him after that?
You think it is better WB?
I'd say if he did that, it is even more dangerous/cynical move.

That's the thing - he left enough room for Rubens to start the move but then continued to shut the door even when it became dangerous. Thankfully he's been punished.

WhiteBlue, do you think the stewards got it wrong?

Schumacher did not "shut the door". He simply kept his line and yielded a bit very late. I think that the stewards were right to punish Schumacher for dangerous driving. I also think they should have taken note of Barichello forcing his way into a wedge in the first place. IMO it should have earned him at least a reprimand for dangerous driving as well.

[WhiteBlue]

Please look at the picture. Rubens was already in a trap if he travelled from there in a straight line.

Is Schumacher driving parallel to the pit-wall?

Schumacher did not move into Barichello, he actually evaded but not strong enough to let Barichello stay on track. That is what I think.

How he "evaded" if he continued to move to the right?
He only moved left to get to the braking zone.
And his inability to control Rubens on the better breaking line shows why the idea that Rubens could take him on the left is BS.

Obviously Schumacher is not driving parallel to the pit wall and the white line. He was driving in a straight line but in an angle to the right track demarkation line. So the space Rubens was driving into was a wedge. And at the point of the wedge was the pit wall.

I think that you cannot safely make an overtaking maneuver in that situation. You rely on another driver to yield and change his line for you. What if he did not see you?

Some people say that was brave. I say it was unsafe and foolish.

[Chaparral]

Whiteblue wrote

Schumacher did not "shut the door". He simply kept his line and yielded a bit very late

Take your hand out of your pants its obviously sending you blind - how long can you wring something out of something that was blatant - you were a bloody minded Schumacher fanboy at GP.com and nothings changed with you or him for that matter he still thinks he calls the shots - time has moved on for the old man he needs a zimmer frame these days and trainer wheels on that Mercedes

[timbo]

I think that you cannot safely make an overtaking maneuver in that situation. You rely on another driver to yield and change his line for you. What if he did not see you?

You always rely on other driver when you're making a move.

[segedunum]

I don't think anybody tried to insult your intelligence, segedunum and certainly not the board's intelligence. One can easily have split opinions about Rubens Barichello's pass on Schumacher and be completely sane of mind. I see that your offending remark is now removed and that tells a lot about who is discussing things and who is misbehaving or trolling.

To suggest that Rubens is doing anything dangerous here, despite what Michael may or may not have done (and there isn't much debate about that), is totally nuts. Rubens pulled out and overtook. What you're suggesting is that no matter what Rubens did he had no right to overtake and was being dangerous. Utter crap.

Frankly I don't care whose comments are being removed and no it doesn't prove any of your points.

show that such reports about Schumacher changing his lines are in error. As the next picture clearly shows

He makes two clear moves where he straightens after them, it's totally clear he's reacting to what Rubens is doing by looking in his mirror and Rubens has to change his direction consistently to avoid a large collision. Once Rubens moves he is committed because he's boxed in and Schumacher still moves over. The picture shows what you want it to see.

Barichello drives his car on a straight into a gap that points directly into the wall.

You've take one frame in one picture where Rubens has to change direction and you take that that he is making one move towards the wall and a move potentially towards his own death. That is so stupid it isn't even funny.

I'm not alone in the opinion that a racing driver in the seventies would have never done such a thing.

It wouldn't have happened because a driver in the seventies wouldn't have moved over like that EVER. His mind would immediately have turned to regaining the position at the next corner. James Hunt defended his line but he made sure he did it as early as possible - and he stayed there.

I love how people are commenting on this in a way they think is definitive when it's clear you and others have never been anywhere near the cockpit of any racing vehicle, and it's damn lucky you never have.

Speaking of opinions, you're not going to find a driver who has commented on this who doesn't think this is Schumacher's fault from Wurz to Coulthard to Button, so if you're using opinions to back up what you are trying to say then I'm afraid you lose on that score, so there.

It would have been potentially suicidal in one of the old cars to rely on someone else for space.

They did it all the time you twit because they all knew of the consequences. A driver in front knew when to yield his position when he knew he was slower and knew he had to position his car right to try and get it back. Running people into walls to get them to stay behind was never an option.

And that is someone who is clearly ahead and may not have seen you or isn't expecting to have to give up his line on a straight piece of tarmac to make place. Place for you which you have not had in the first place, that is.

Rubens was alongside and Michael waited until he moved. You can't just place a car continually in the face of another driver.

What follows next is a provoked dangerous move by Schumacher that earned him a penalty which I support and have supported before.

Oh, deary me. Once again, to suggest that Rubens caused this is, well, you know. Even when you've tried to say that Schumacher deserved the penalty you're trying to say it was initiated by another driver - because he was racing in a faster car and was overtaking - perhaps in an attempt to make it look as if this wasn't really all Schumacher's fault. Frankly I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

[jonathan189]

There are no detailed rules about this sort of thing. Stewards have a lot of discretion regarding what counts as an "illegitimate" manoeuvre. But there is an unwritten rule that says "don't endanger other drivers".

Schumacher saw Barrichello alongside him... he saw the wall... and he carried on moving across.

There is no doubt at all that Schumacher's manoeuvre broke the unwritten rule. That's why so many drivers and ex-drivers are condemning it. It was a well-earned penalty, no question.