How do you think drivers have changed?

[mep]

When I saw the Schumacher Barrichelo manover I thought ohh man Schumacher is insane. After the race Schumacher said there was enough space otherwise RB could not have passed him. It was an amazing hard drive but there was exactly the space for one car.
Now Schumi even apologised for it. Something I never expected from a race driver and I must say I have great respect for it.

I realise that this manover happened between the two oldest drivers in the field.
Maybe something what looks just insane for us today was not such a big thing when they started to drive. It’s just hard racing.
Remember they both started to drive F1 in early 90ths. That’s almost 20 years ago.
Those drivers where grown up watching races of the late 70ths and the 80ths.
How did drivers behave during that time?
Racing was really dangerous during that time and drivers probably knew that.
They all must have been somehow insane but maybe also "tougher". When I think of that time I also think about crazy mans like Villeneuve
Some manoevers just end in crashing out the rival.

Today it feels like drivers are more whining on the radio than actually driving the hell out of the car. It feels like we get a generation who complains every little incident. I am not talking about Barrichelo now.

[andrew]

F1 has become far too PR dominated and (dare I say it) staid. Back in the day, there was proper racing with proper drivers, not a bunch of moaning minnies who go running in tears to the race stewards everytime another driver looks at them the wrong way.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with hard racing. Unfortunately, some drivers are just not hard racers and expect the stewards to help them. Schumacher is, Barrichello isn't. F1 is about racing not follow thy leader and hope they get a penalty. It's just the nature of the beast I guess, but sadly we will see less and less real racers as the years go on and more of the moaning minnies.

I would agree with the above that Schumacher and Barrichello both started at much the same time and would have grown up watching much the same sort of racing. But I would add that I think Schumacher's style belongs to an era that we will sadly no longer see. Barrichello's style is something that will only increase, hammering yet another nail in the F1 coffin.

[xpensive]

Au contraire andrew,once upon a time F1 was dangerous, slipstreming at Spa and Monza was no buisness for the faint-hearted, but the Amons an Petersons had no problems, one false move at 300 km/h was ending up in a tree or worse.

Today's situation have made drivers so complacent about safety its sickening.

[WhiteBlue]

I think that racing started to change very much some years after carbon fibre tubs and fuel safety cells were installed. The last huge fiery accident I saw was Berger in Imola 1989 and he survived it very well. At that time drivers already had the idea that crashing was sometimes a considered option over yielding a place. It was by far not an invention of Schumacher. Senna and Prost did it and others after 1985 as well.

Still the ideal of clean driving was conceived with pre 1980 cars. They were extremely flimsy and an accident like Webber's in Valencia was 100% deadly as seen by Gilles Villeneuve's death in Zolder 1982. At that time the first carbon fibre chassis of John Barnard was already on track and had proven to be incredible crash resistant to twenty one shunts that Andrea de Caesaris had in 1981.

I believe that the pre 1980 driving standards need to be upheld. Drivers should not drive each others off track regardless of the run off available. Drivers should also not try a move where obviously there is no space on track and they are forced to use the run off or crash. The proliferation of tarmac run offs since 2006 has again changed the driver's attitude for staying on track.

For me a significant event was the start of the 2007 Belgian GP when Alonso drove his team mate Hamilton completely off the track onto the run off. The FiA did nothing to stop this practice and largely remained inactive until 2009 about such maneuvers when Kimi used the run off again in Spa at Pouhon for an extension of the race track.

In my view driving a competitor off the track should always be penalised. Alonso 2007 should have received a penalty in my view. If it is under dangerous conditions the penalty should just be more severe.

So the answer is that drivers have changed twice over the last three decades. During the eighties they got used to consider crashing an option and during the last five years they got used to rely on asphalt run off without penalty.

[roost89]

I don't have much experience of watching pre 2000 driving. So I can only go by what I've seen.

The drivers now are a far more polished and skillful group of people than they were then. Before, there were a handful of very good drivers, now nearly the entire field is top-notch.

I do think the driving has deteriorated somewhat when it comes to challenging opponents. This is mainly due to the cars more than anything else (we all know about the 0.7s invisible barrier). The cars are often driven on or very near the limit when following another car, as was evidenced at the last race, particularly, by Seb Vettel trying to overtake Fernando Alonso. His car wiggling under acceleration and going off the track due to lack of downforce.

About whining on the radio: I think that's always happened, ever since their was pit-to-car radio. I think even when their wasn't the drivers were complaining The teams are now just using it to their advantage. If you can make an opponent get punished via radio, less work to do on track.
Think of it as using the entire range of specialist spanners, not just an adjustable spanner.
It is more prevelant this year as the teams seem to be allowing us mere mortals to hear the "team radio" more often.

But I would add that I think Schumacher's style belongs to an era that we will sadly no longer see. Barrichello's style is something that will only increase, hammering yet another nail in the F1 coffin.

What are you refering to when you speak of "style" ?

Edit: I think Vitaly Petrov is of the old-school driver. I think he's the new Kimi, except maybe minus the stupendous speed.

[mep]

Maybe there is another thing that changed driver behaviour.
Those hard punishments.
Without hopes for hard punishments drivers probably would not whine about others so often.
Thats something I definitely don't like. When to guys have trouble with each other they should either sort it out themselves or live with it.

[xpensive]

:::
I do think the driving has deteriorated somewhat when it comes to challenging opponents. This is mainly due to the cars more than anything else (we all know about the 0.7s invisible barrier). ool driver. I think he's the new Kimi, except maybe minus the stupendous speed.

Again, drivers of the 70s and 80s saw things completely differently, facing zeltweg and monza the way they were. Sitting in an aluminium bathtub at 300 kmh must have been something xtra.

[andrew]

What are you refering to when you speak of "style" ?

Schumachers style is very aggressive (and entertaining) and he is one of the drivers that does his talking on the track. Drivers like Barrichello tootle around, occasionally doing something interesting but generally do nothing much and do thier talking through the race stewards and the press.

I would agree about Petrov. He is very much a talent for the future even though he does have something of the 60s about him. His race at Hungary was excellent. Hopefully there is more to come.

[mep]

I think one of the last if not the last driver of the old style was Kimi.
It seems like he wasn't there for the clamour or to get famous. He was only there for the driving. I never saw him whining, I never saw him complaining to the media, well in fact I hardly saw him talking at all. Because he gave a sh!it about the media. He delivered on track and had fun in his free time. He attended power boat or ski doo races and most important for a racer image going to parties, drink and have fun with girls.

[donskar]

On this topic, I recommend a recent issue of MotorSport with a key article titled, "1970 Year One."

Today's drivers go through intensive "media training." (I guess Kimi flunked the course.) Back in the day, PR was insignificant. Some of yesterday's drivers were characters -- Count Carel de Beaufort, Masten Gregory, James Hunt, Mario Andretti, Gilles Villeneuve, Mike Parkes, John Surtees, the Brambilla brothers, and many others who would be misfits today.

Yesterday's drivers were not as physically fit -- not to the same level as today. Remember James Hunt smoking in the paddock? -- not a rare sight back then.

Today's drivers are more thoroughly trained -- physically, in PR, through simulators, and through the ranks of lower formulae. But at the very top, yesterday's drivers wre skilled in racing all sorts of cars. WDCs like Jim Clark, Jihn Surtees, Denny Hulme and many others would race F1, F2, Can-Am, Indy, Le Mans -- anything with wheels. Clark died in an F2. Can you imagine any F1 driver racing at that level today?

Yesterday's drivers lived with seeing colleagues die in race cars EVERY YEAR. It caused them to be a more closely-knit brotherhood.

Today's drivers are businessmen to a greater extent than in the past. Back then, they lived and very often died for the sport. "Wild Willy" Mairesse committed suicide when he finally had to admit he was no longer able to get a top ride -- can't see any of today's drivers doing that -- they'd just get a job on TV.

[747heavy]

=D> like your post donskar, especially the last part.

I´m not the one to say all was better in the good old days, but some things where surely different.

I would like to add, that IMHO we have seen a general shift in general/public moral and values over the years (for better or worse, thats not up to me to decide), so this plays a role as well.

And the omnipresence of the media. I think back in the "old days" there was more respect for the private life of drivers as well.
They where not constantly under the microscope.
There where not hords of people waiting to find something to pick on, and drag somebody through the mud.
This guys could go out, have a drink, have some chicks a smoke and wreck a rental car along the way, without the whole world making it into front page news.

Todays PR and cooperate image obsession has streamlined most of the individuality and character out of the drivers. Today you can´t really affort to be "different" IMHO
just my 0.02$

[donskar]

Agree with you, 747heavy.

We often say that F1 is a business (most sports are). It is in fact (IMHO) a marketing/branding business, where exposure, "spin," perception, etc are the products. It was NOT that way a genration (or so) ago. The "beginning of the end" might have been the Gold Leaf / Lotus tie-up (?)

This superannuated old dinosaur will stop now before I start talking about F1 cars painted in their national colors (Italy: Red, England: Green, etc) and Mauro Forgheiri in the little Ferrari farmhouse.

[xpensive]

Another thing is the money, back in the day drivers were basically paid peanuts for risking their lives, one story tells that Chris Amon was paid 70 000 pounds by Matra for the 1971 season. A fantastic amount of money then, a speeding ticket today, even when adjusted for inflation. A win at the 1971 British GP paid 20 000 Swiss Francs and Yardley's sponsorship to BRM was worth 50 000 pounds.

Jackie Stewart was a pioneer in moving to Switserland for taxreasons, I'm sure that Jaques Villeneuve never paid a dollar in Quebecois tax, same thing with Michael Schumacher in Germany.

Legend says that Nigel Mansell risked his home for his early career, I doubt if Hamilton ever had to go that far, with Mercedes, West and Vodaphone money behind him all the way.

Thast suckered Argentinian driver, "Pechito" Lopez, paid 800 000 USD without getting as much as a seat-fit in a non-existing team.

[Raftaar]

Hello everyone!
This is a very good topic to have discussion on, at least a breath of fresh air after all the lashing & bashing we have had on the forum in the recent weeks. Credit to Mep for starting this thread.
I agree with all that has been said till now. Donsker's post feels so appropriate, something that we all know and realise, more or less, but is hard to correctly put to words.

But don't we see the same picture in every other walk of life. With time, we see things around us turning more and more plasticy, loosing their character, loosing their elegence; All maybe a product of an increasingly Capitalistic world, which has given us a fast paced life lived in cut-throat competetion.

The same applies for sports and for Formula 1. This competetion is now more of a commercial product to it's governers than the competetion itself. Grand Prix weekends and all it's frevoulities are witnessed through television or otherwise by millions around the world. The teams & indeed drivers are forced to present themself in a polished way, on and off the track. This is where purists and real enthusiasts like us here in this forum, who watch & follow the sport in it's entirity and not just because of it's "entertainment value", maybe feel they have lost something in the sport.


Talking about drivers made in the old mould, I am surprised no one has mentioned KUBICA yet. I believe he is another one of the so called "Natural Racers", they are "naturally quick", just like Kimi. All that thay know to do, is to drive the equipment given to them FAST. Give them anything on 4 wheels (who knows, maybe even 2), and they will drive it fast. Isn't that what a Racing Driver is supposed to do. These people just do their job on the racing track, they are least bothered about all other bla-bla around them. I always feel drivers like Kimi & Kubica have great character about them, something that is interpritted wrongly by the media, just because they don't get much "news fodder" or "scoop" from them.

[Agenda_Is_Incorrect]

While some things were better in the past it seems to me that, at least by most opinions expressed in this topic, this is more of a case of saudosism. People say we get old when we stop being capable to adapt to the new, even when new is better and good. Some views of hard racing are obsolete by this saying.

What's exciting or hard driving having anything to do with drivers that get drunk, or smoke, are incapable of doing an interview or throw their cars over the opponents? Just as much of the good racing today is not done as drivers and teams having a wrong approach with the image issue, this view that good and hard racing is done only when involving danger, when getting things done by your own hands instead of "whining" and being crazy in the track and in the personal life seems to be a image issue as well. Some got stuck in that image of F1 or racing in general and don't like it anymore if it hasn't this "macho" image anymore.


Today some teams and drivers avoid hard racing to keep a false and incorrect image of being right and clean, while behind the scenes the dirty is as intense as ever, and yesterday some drivers and teams would just behave as crazy as possible because that's the image that fans and sponsors wanted to see. Sponsoring might not be that big those days but so was the cost of putting a car to race. Crashing out was never good in terms of collecting points and being able to keep the fight until the last moment, which is also good racing, but it was "cool", so they did it. No "proper man"/"proper country"/"proper human being" from decades a go would let unfinished business, would him/it? Why would you "whine" and recur to to a court if you could use your fist or your car?

I've been watching F1 since the end of the non punishing regulations/stewards era to today and I'm glad this has changed. I want to see drivers racing good and hard without being jerks and behaving like a typical illegal street racer, winning by abilities and not by scaring the opponent blackmailing his physical or moral integrity. Most importantly, independent of what I want there is no requirement of being reckless or media-unfriendly to have hard racing.

Wonder why Schumacher has 7 titles and has little to none appreciation as a person and even as a driver in a more general way and Senna has 3 and people love him until today? That's just the answer, as one knew hot to race without doing stupidity and the other did and does stupidity most of the times challenge arises. Not to say Senna didn't have his failed moments, but almost always he knew how to use craft and not dirty tricks to get it his way. Kobayashi is a good example today, doing good and hard racing on the edge without recurring to dirty moves and without the need to ignore the media/sponsors/image part in a way that puts them as if it was all evil and just business. From his time at Toyota I remember him as not being a tool of bad media/"image obsession"/corporation robot while still doing the good part of those things and racing beautifuly.

Hard and good racing and behaving really properly in and out of the track are not a trade.