Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[segedunum]

Mercedes will be here next year and the year after that wether you or I like it or not.

There is no guarantee of that at all. Either way Mercedes has made it very clear that the existence of the team depends on results - and results next year at that. Given the odds stacked against them it's a question of how patient they are going to be because Brawn and Schumacher getting Ferrari winning was easy in comparison to what they face now.

And how is getting 100% exposure for a marque such as Mercedes bad?

Seeing their cars languishing in midfield with a very good engine, especially getting beaten by McLaren with the same engine and watching the man they pinned their marketing and survival hopes on looking at the back of Torro Rossos and having to drive people into walls over tenth places is not what they had in mind. Mercedes did not take over that team for a jolly. They made their modus operandi clear as soon as they took over.

Mclaren made millions out of Mercedes, and then wanted their own car. The split was inevitable, are you saying Mercedes shouldnt spend? Becuase if they dont spend more they are finished.....

The split was inevitable once Mercedes made it clear they would prefer to take over McLaren. BMW spent. Toyota spent. Honda spent. Look where it got them. That team needs a hell of a lot of organisational work. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault are all ahead of them there. If Renault get ten or fifteen horsepower they're screwed.

[marcush.]

ercedes have taken a quite long time in looking into this before they engaged in Brawn.
would you think they would take less time to stop it prematurely ?
If Brawn and Haug were not complete lunatics they will have presented the board with a realistic scenario(3Years)and not something like:
lets review the story after not even 12 months....so at least there are some guarantees in place.

There will be targets on the path ,no question and clearly these have not been met.

I´m not even sure if they promised wins in the first year.Of course if they fail to
win next year the thing is going to go down the drain.

[ggajic]

Race results are speaking enough.

2009 WDC and WCC champions.

Now compare progress that Red Bull made from begging of 2009 with current state of Mercedes GP. Unlike other company jobs in F1 results speaks volumes. Of course it is hard to stay always on top but is team is going backwards since middle of 2009 it also speaks about competence of people involved. Ferrari and Red Bull made progress through season... If Mercedes GP is supposed to be on top they should be 0.5 sec behind front runners.. not 1.5 sec. It doesn't help much they know what problem with car is - competent engineers are supposed to know how to solve problems.

[segedunum]

2009 WDC and WCC champions.

I'm sure that's what Mercedes had thought they'd bought.

[ggajic]

And how is getting 100% exposure for a marque such as Mercedes bad?

Seeing their cars languishing in midfield with a very good engine, especially getting beaten by McLaren with the same engine and watching the man they pinned their marketing and survival hopes on looking at the back of Torro Rossos and having to drive people into walls over tenth places is not what they had in mind. Mercedes did not take over that team for a jolly. They made their modus operandi clear as soon as they took over.[/quote]

OK, but you would agree that Renault team compared to Red Bull powered by same engine looks bad too. And I haven`t read that they are planing F1 exit. IMHO Mercedes HQ in Stuttgart is supposed to bring some skilled people to Brakley.

[marcush.]

the requirement will surely be to provide a sound plan for year2 ,as obviously year one did not produce the promised success...the question here is .is the plan good or is it made up for the decision takers again?
it is just logical ,corrective activity after analysis of the current status.I don´t think these meetings are only on a year by year base, it will be more like a monthly or quarterly fixed meeting,as the deviation is growing the meetings will be more frequently...
for sure Mercedes is famous for task forces ,be sure something like that has been installed even before Barcelona... the participants come up with corrective items ..which are reviewed after some time....Brawn and Haug are of course not happy men at this time but as we see the official announcement of switching attention on 2011 now is a clear sign that the board has accepted that MGP W01 will not win on speed so no sense to develop further after Brawn has taken responsibility and declared they know what went wrong and how to correct .

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

competent engineers are supposed to know how to solve problems.

4th best Team behind Ferrari Red Bull and Mclaren. COMPETENT

Seeing their cars languishing in midfield with a very good engine, especially getting beaten by McLaren with the same engine and watching the man they pinned their marketing and survival hopes on looking at the back of Torro Rossos and having to drive people into walls over tenth places is not what they had in mind. Mercedes did not take over that team for a jolly. They made their modus operandi clear as soon as they took over.

Where do I start with this!
You are comparing McLaren against Mercedes? So Mercedes are in year 1 and Mclaren are in year 30 odd and you start drawing comparison? Thats a joke, not even Daimler expected that.
And staring at the back of Torro Rosso are they? Hmmmm really? The races and tables dictate otherwise.

The split was inevitable once Mercedes made it clear they would prefer to take over McLaren. BMW spent. Toyota spent. Honda spent. Look where it got them. That team needs a hell of a lot of organisational work. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault are all ahead of them there. If Renault get ten or fifteen horsepower they're screwed.

So IF Renault get more horsepower Mercedes are screwed? Wow.
Using that Logic I can say, If Mercedes sort their weight distribution and aero problems out they could lead the field!
You used Honda Toyota and BMW as examples of big spenders. Did BMW not get results in 2008? Kubica was a contender halfway through the season until BMW themselves switched focus to 2009. Did honda not win in 2006?

Mercedes and the rest will have the resource restriction next year. limiting staff to around 400. Mercedes are already there or thereabouts in terms of numbers, but to get better staff they will firstly have to:
1.identify better personnel than what they already have
2.Pay the ransom(tends to be expensive)
3.Brainstorm.
4.Compare yourself relative to the competition come February.

points 1 and 2 are expensive, this is where money comes in. How Toyota spent their money is a lesson in how not to do F1. While they remained in F1 for around 10 years, the team itself changed year on year very dramatically.

Brawn is shrewd enough to get things done correctly, and if you think giving him a bigger budget to work with is a bad idea, well I would guess you are wrong.

[aral]

competent engineers are supposed to know how to solve problems.

4th best Team behind Ferrari Red Bull and Mclaren. COMPETENT

Seeing their cars languishing in midfield with a very good engine, especially getting beaten by McLaren with the same engine and watching the man they pinned their marketing and survival hopes on looking at the back of Torro Rossos and having to drive people into walls over tenth places is not what they had in mind. Mercedes did not take over that team for a jolly. They made their modus operandi clear as soon as they took over.

Where do I start with this!
You are comparing McLaren against Mercedes? So Mercedes are in year 1 and Mclaren are in year 30 odd and you start drawing comparison? Thats a joke, not even Daimler expected that.
And staring at the back of Torro Rosso are they? Hmmmm really? The races and tables dictate otherwise.

The split was inevitable once Mercedes made it clear they would prefer to take over McLaren. BMW spent. Toyota spent. Honda spent. Look where it got them. That team needs a hell of a lot of organisational work. Red Bull, McLaren, Ferrari and Renault are all ahead of them there. If Renault get ten or fifteen horsepower they're screwed.

So IF Renault get more horsepower Mercedes are screwed? Wow.
Using that Logic I can say, If Mercedes sort their weight distribution and aero problems out they could lead the field!
You used Honda Toyota and BMW as examples of big spenders. Did BMW not get results in 2008? Kubica was a contender halfway through the season until BMW themselves switched focus to 2009. Did honda not win in 2006?

Mercedes and the rest will have the resource restriction next year. limiting staff to around 400. Mercedes are already there or thereabouts in terms of numbers, but to get better staff they will firstly have to:
1.identify better personnel than what they already have
2.Pay the ransom(tends to be expensive)
3.Brainstorm.
4.Compare yourself relative to the competition come February.

points 1 and 2 are expensive, this is where money comes in. How Toyota spent their money is a lesson in how not to do F1. While they remained in F1 for around 10 years, the team itself changed year on year very dramatically.

Brawn is shrewd enough to get things done correctly, and if you think giving him a bigger budget to work with is a bad idea, well I would guess you are wrong.

For goodness sake, can you not post about the W01, instead of all this Mercedes adoration claptrap?

[segedunum]

4th best Team behind Ferrari Red Bull and Mclaren. COMPETENT

They were champions last year. This year they're fourth - at best? That's not what Mercedes thought they were buying.

Where do I start with this! You are comparing McLaren against Mercedes? So Mercedes are in year 1 and Mclaren are in year 30 odd and you start drawing comparison? Thats a joke, not even Daimler expected that.

Indeed, where do you start? The point is, as champions Mercedes did not expect to be the fourth best team at best, and will likely be behind Renault before soon. Twisting this around by arguing that they haven't been around for thirty years doesn't wash. You pointed out yourself that they are champions further back. You can't have it all ways.

And staring at the back of Torro Rosso are they? Hmmmm really? The races and tables dictate otherwise.

That's exactly what Schumacher did in Australia. Alas that argument won't wash when Norbert has to stand in front of Mercedes's board. That's what they saw and what we saw.

So IF Renault get more horsepower Mercedes are screwed? Wow.

Yep. Renault are ahead in the developments that they keep bringing. No matter what Mercedes do they stand still. Since the engine is homologated it's a question of when not if Renault get a chance to add a few horsepower.

Using that Logic I can say, If Mercedes sort their weight distribution and aero problems out they could lead the field!

Weight distribution is not homologated (yet!) so that's a totally non-sensical argument you can't compare. They screwed up their weight distribution, and probably several other things we don't know, via incompetent development. That's just plain silly.

You used Honda Toyota and BMW as examples of big spenders. Did BMW not get results in 2008? Kubica was a contender halfway through the season until BMW themselves switched focus to 2009. Did honda not win in 2006?

That's just desperate. They managed to win and then promptly all went backwards. They're no great examples to be using, are they?

Brawn is shrewd enough to get things done correctly, and if you think giving him a bigger budget to work with is a bad idea, well I would guess you are wrong.

Sorry, but the odds are against him and there are huge question marks about the competence of that team as it is and has been on the development and commercial sides. That's gone on for years. Mercedes want a steady stream of race wins and titles. There is no three, four or five year plan. The team is already established as champions.

We'll see what happens next year but there is no reason whatsoever to suggest that things will improve. It's just wishful thinking to speculate blindly.

While it's been an interesting off-shoot as to where this car has gone wrong and what the consequences will be for failure, we'll leave it there.

[ESPImperium]

I think you have it right there JET, Mercedes are a competent team, not world class team yet. When Brawn/Burne/Todt took over at Ferarri in the mid 90s, it took them at least 2-3 years to get things right, and id expect it to take the same at Mercedes. Brawn has been at the team since 2008 under Honda and Brawn yes, but the circumstances were diffrent then.

Honda had a budget of arround $440million a year and arround 900 staff at their disposal and the data from Super Aguri at their beck-and-call, thats arround 1150 staff across 4 sites and a budget of nearly $600million. Japan hits its first bombshell, pulls Super Aguri from entry at Turkey 2008, they are gone. Honda continue for rest of season, but the warnings are there from Max Mosley who was in the loop, December 2008, Honda withdraws but leaves Brackley fully functioning in anticipation a buyer can be found. January 2009, Ross Braawn and Nic Fry lead a management buyout, operate on a budget of arround $143 million for the season, both Jenson and Rubens take a massive pay-cut and one driver drives on a race by crace contract untill Monaco (Rubens), they cut the staff from arround 900 to arround 700 by cutting the engine department on buyout. After the first 4 races, the workforce is futher cut to arround 550 with more job losses to come. At the end of the 2009 season... We know the history from then on.

Brawn have arround 300 staff at present, they are bringing in some more people, but only for support in key posistions. They are in the resource restriction at current, but once Brawn gets a stable and secure budget for the next 3 seasons at least, he can start to implement the plan, Stutgart are rumored to be giving the team $120 million a year, the rest of their budget is to be made up in sponso revenue, whitch should be arround £200million to 220million in total per season.

With this i can see a plan, but paitience and calm heads from Germany, i cannot see how Schumacher cannot drive to another WDC, but Brawn needs to get the right people in the right areas, and develop a strong team for a base, they lucked into the 2009 titles a little with the regs and their loopholes, but with the new regs and good designers they can come again, stronger i think. But it needs the right people with the right attitudes.

As for the Renault RS27 lacking 15 horspower, its a fallacy as the Mercedes powered cars altho have more grunt, are rumored to carry arround 10KG more fuel at the start of the race to make up for le lack of fuel efficency over the RS27-2010. The Mercedes FO108X power plants will become more fuel efficient next year, and this could mean they loose some horsepower, thus actually bringing into play the Renault powerplants more into play. Lotus arnt looaking at Renault for nothing, Tony Fernandes is willing to pay the £15million pay off to Cosworth to get the Renaults next year if he can. And if i were renault and Lotus id have a colabaration with red Bull in there for the Red Bull gearbox so they can have Pull Rods and the smallest and lightest box on the grid as well.

I dont doubt that Mercedes are worried one bit. They will have a plan in place, may take a year or two, but will come true in the end. Rome wanst built in a day after all.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

ESPImperium

Good post, and one that I concur with wholeheartedly.
Mercedes would not have bought Brawn without doing its sums. They knew the "bgp002" or W01 would have been compromised with the lack of funding Brawn had in 2009.

Ross himself goes on about how they were lucky to be at some of the races last year, bernie subbed him apparently
People are writing off Mercedes with a car whos birth happened almost entirely under Brawn.

Now if people applied this to Ferrari or Mclaren, even they would do well to be in 4th under these circumstances.
I remain optimistic, and I really think talk of Mercedes leaving is more than just a tad premature at the moment.

[segedunum]

I think you have it right there JET, Mercedes are a competent team, not world class team yet. When Brawn/Burne/Todt took over at Ferarri in the mid 90s, it took them at least 2-3 years to get things right, and id expect it to take the same at Mercedes. Brawn has been at the team since 2008 under Honda and Brawn yes, but the circumstances were diffrent then.

It took them four years. They competed against Williams one year and McLaren the next. They only ever had one competitor per season. Now they have three. Do the maths.

Beyond that it's all speculation and wishful thinking.

[ESPImperium]

I think you have it right there JET, Mercedes are a competent team, not world class team yet. When Brawn/Burne/Todt took over at Ferarri in the mid 90s, it took them at least 2-3 years to get things right, and id expect it to take the same at Mercedes. Brawn has been at the team since 2008 under Honda and Brawn yes, but the circumstances were diffrent then.

It took them four years. They competed against Williams one year and McLaren the next. They only ever had one competitor per season. Now they have three. Do the maths.

Beyond that it's all speculation and wishful thinking.

That was back in the 90s, and the fact that Newey was the designer and the fact that the cars were arguably more advanced back then with active suspension etc...

Modren F1 started back in the middle to late 90s to my judgement. It now takes at least 3-4 years to get the engineering base right before an assault on the title, take the current case study of Red Bull, took over Jaguar in August 2004 started to get the new management of Marko and Horner in place for seasons end, this happened, over the off season and into 2005 they took the modified R5 chassis into the 2005 season with the RB1. Then into 2006 they got decent power from Ferarris 056 powerplant, fragile car, led to the hireing of Newey for 2007. It took Newey the RB3, RB4, Geoff Willis and Renault power to get the engineering base and process correct for Red Bull to be fast in 2009 with the RB5, and into 2010 wit the RB6 the car is all but walking away with the title as fastest oughright.

Modren F1 teams need at least 3 good years of progress to get the process and baseline into place before you can make a decent assault on any title. My point is this, Mercedes has has upheaval over the last 2 years with Honda and Brawn GP. Stutgart have been wise enough to see this, giving a decent budget getting Nick Fry working for sponsor revenue for the team as well to gain more money for the team, they have also seen that the "BGP002" was looking like a dog in comparison to the RA109 that Honda gifted as the BGP001.

I think that Ross Brawn was in the middle of change at Honda, had to step in for a year, and now has had to implement a new strategy, i have faith that if Mercedes can show an improvement into 2011, putting the team into the top 3 mix, giving Schumi and Rosberg a chance at wins, they can make good in 2012 for assaults on chanpionships.

As for engines, thsoe figures were for the start of the season, and will be less now. But cars are all arround the same point of fuel now, with engines being in a +/- 10KG area now, the Renault is effectivly -5kg than the Mercedes, the Ferarri is +2 on the mercedes and the Cossie is arround +10 on the Renault. But all things concidered, all are arround the same power to fuel ratio. If i were renault, id only want to add arround 7-10hp to the RS27 as the fuel efficency will still be better.

[xpensive]

I am absolutely certain that the entire xistance of this team is a standing topic on the Daimler-Benz board-meetings. When investing in a WDC and WCC team and dragging out a 7-time WDC from retirement, you obviously xpect more than this.

The argument of weight-distribution sounds strange as well, if you can alter the wheel-base, you should be able to change weights as well. No, this is simply the old BAR/Honda team, they were never better than this.

[marcush.]

still they are not toaster salesmen,aren´´t they?
The raceteam constantly has quickest pit stops,the failure rate with Mercedes GP is also miles better than RedBull and Ferrari or maclaren.

they are living under the microscope already ,no question .as the promised results did not come.