Is ABS advantage in race?

[Pachoba]

With ABS:
If the wheels brake more so wheels are rotate, go to the steering direction. But if in front of this car is next car which brake good so crash out of track. Many of the DTM in 1992 to 1998 years (i think in this time teams use ABS).

Without ABS:
If the wheels brake more so wheels are stop and rub on asphalt and wear.

My question is simple: Is ABS advantage in race?

[Edis]

Simple answer: Yes

A good driver will have a longer braking distance than a correctly calibrated ABS system.

I know this was put to the test with a regular car and a racing car driver. With the ABS disconnected the braking distance became longer in all cases except on gravel.

[autogyro]

However, there is more to slowing down for a corner or complex of corners, going through them and exiting as fast as possible.
ABS can be useful but it can also upset the fine balance of variables that need to be juggled by a good driver to achieve the above.

[timbo]

However, there is more to slowing down for a corner or complex of corners, going through them and exiting as fast as possible.
ABS can be useful but it can also upset the fine balance of variables that need to be juggled by a good driver to achieve the above.

You can always switch it off.
Mansell and Prost never complained.
One thing that might be crucial over race distance is that you would save your tyres better with ABS.

[WhiteBlue]

It is an advantage if you look at it from a performance point of view. When you look at the entertainment aspect it will help drivers to avoid mistakes and make breaking zones shorter. This isn't necessarily what the sport wants. You get more passing when mistakes are made and that is good for the entertainment.

[autogyro]

Braking in the shortest possible distance from a corner is rarely what is needed to get through the corner the fastest.
Often maximum braking even with ABS will unbalance the car on turn in.
Just one negative aspect.

[speedsense]

With ABS:
If the wheels brake more so wheels are rotate, go to the steering direction. But if in front of this car is next car which brake good so crash out of track. Many of the DTM in 1992 to 1998 years (i think in this time teams use ABS).

Without ABS:
If the wheels brake more so wheels are stop and rub on asphalt and wear.

My question is simple: Is ABS advantage in race?

Depends on the ABS system and the pulse rate of it. Some ABS systems don't have a high enough pulse rate to make up the difference of a really good driver.

The biggest difference can be seen when the track condition either changes or is a low grip condition to begin with (street courses, rain). A good ABS system would have an advantage in those conditions..

A really good example of ABS vs non ABS was in Porsche Cup when the 996's had ABS and the 997's didn't. The lesser experience driver in a 996 could stay with an experienced driver in the 997 in the braking zones. Though if contested for the corner, the experienced driver tended to be able to defend the position without ABS, on a track with good grip, if the conditions changed to a slicker condition the ABS driver had an advantage.....

[Pachoba]

This means that, if we want an exciting race so no ABS(if rain also)?
Good driver not need ABS(never).
On rainy surface, drivers want ABS in race.

[ubrben]

The Audi R8 GT3s at the Spa 24 hours last weekend had ABS. One car lost ABS whilst it was wet - instant 3 seconds slower per lap than the sister car.

Ben

[marcush.]

The Audi R8 GT3s at the Spa 24 hours last weekend had ABS. One car lost ABS whilst it was wet - instant 3 seconds slower per lap than the sister car.

Ben

normally you have a fixed balance rate front to rear with ABS ,you can have all 4 corners optimise their brake force at all times 8subject to the frequency of the system high enough to not get upset by events happening quicker than the system can adapt).So an ABS based brake system will naturally have too much bias towards the rear with ABS switched off or it has a default bias that may not suit the situation..so either you got ABS or not ..of course if your car has a fault it will be a lot slower...but of course It would not be a serious claim it was worth 3 seconds in Spa to have ABS..but I don´t think that was your claim anyways.

[ubrben]

The Audi R8 GT3s at the Spa 24 hours last weekend had ABS. One car lost ABS whilst it was wet - instant 3 seconds slower per lap than the sister car.

Ben

normally you have a fixed balance rate front to rear with ABS ,you can have all 4 corners optimise their brake force at all times 8subject to the frequency of the system high enough to not get upset by events happening quicker than the system can adapt).So an ABS based brake system will naturally have too much bias towards the rear with ABS switched off or it has a default bias that may not suit the situation..so either you got ABS or not ..of course if your car has a fault it will be a lot slower...but of course It would not be a serious claim it was worth 3 seconds in Spa to have ABS..but I don´t think that was your claim anyways.

It was 3 seconds a lap in the wet. That's exactly what I'm suggesting.

Ben

[Just_a_fan]

Discussions about ABS are always fun. You can guarantee that some people will opine that a 'good driver' is better than ABS. Those who suggest that 'good drivers' can out perform properly set up modern four-channel ABS systems are, in my experience, either older people who decry 'new fangled stuff' or people who consider themselves to be 'good drivers' and thus feel they can 'beat' ABS. There appears to be a 'badge of honour' in this.

However, I'm not aware of any racing driver at any level (up to and including F1) who has asked for ABS to be removed from their car where the rules allow it to be fitted (there may be some but they are unusual even so). All other things being equal, a decent ABS system is a net benefit on any car be it road or race.

Memorably, Senna's much-vaunted performance at a wet Donington was done with ABS and TC. As such Senna never considered it much of a performance; although as his rivals also had ABS and TC one can still see that the quality of the driver shone through the murk and spray such was his inherent superiority racing in the wet.

[ubrben]

Very good points.

Ben

[King Six]

I wish the F1 TV telemetry would show how much braking force is being applied (It doesn't), it'd be interesting to see how much work with the brake pedal the drivers are doing in order to prevent lockup.

Coincidentally, are these guys using any special tricks racing/braking without ABS in order to minimise lock? You have left foot braking and such, feathering the throttle and shifting down properly...things I learnt playing video games, but it's still abit of a grey area for me...

[autogyro]

IMO racing in the wet is the place to hone the skills to become a top racing driver. If you cannot race well in wet conditions then give up the challenge.