Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

[WhiteBlue]

This debate started off with the fact that a wheel came off in the pits. Yes, a wheel can loosen in a race, but in practically all cases, the driver has noticed the difference in handling, when a nut loosened, and I cannot remember the last time a wheel flew off without warning (apart from Rosbergs). Because of nuts loosening, it became a requirement to fit a mechanical locking pin. However, with the advent of superfast pit stops, an automatic lock began to be used. THAT is the problem!

In 2008 we saw Heikki Kovalainen and Lewis Hamilton having wheel nuts coming loose in Barcelona and at the Nürburgring due to weak wheel rims (a layer of laquer was applied in a faulty way) if my memory serves me right. In 2009 Alonso had a loose wheel nut which flew away in turn five in Hungary and made the wheel fly away in turn seven. Alonso told the team that he thought he had a puncture but they did not tell him he had a loose wheel nut. So if a team is vicious enough a similar incident can happen again. This year you had wheels coming loose on Michael Schumacher's and Sebastian Vettel's cars during a race. So it is not something that is unlikely to happen with the 2010 wheel nut mechanism.

If pit stops were subjected to a compulsory minimum time, then it could be ensured that a proper lock was put on the nut. An electronic device (if it was even possible) would bring further complication to the procedure, and electronics are every bit as likely to fail as a mechanical advice. And then, would all other formulae have to follow suit??
Autogyro, we can agree to disagree, but I can see absolutely no way in which a system such as you are suggesting, could work. Someone likened it to a tyre pressure sensor, but they work on an entirely different principle.

I would find a compulsory tyre stop time ridiculous. I'm quite confident that most viewers would also find that against F1 ethos. Besides the whole tyre change is artificial and only there to create drama and talking points for the tyre manufacturer.

Regarding the comparability of a tyre pressure sensor and a wheel nut torque sensor I see no difference. Both devices pick up a mechanical strain and transmit it with a little wireless sonsor to the SECU. The difference is entirely in the mechanical adaptation of the sensor and in the logic of the software. The device would actually be fail safe by design. If the signal from one wheel nut is failing to transmit the whole car will be immobilized in the pit stop. Obviously one has to consider slightly different strategies if the signal gets lost during a race.

[andrew]

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/08/03/h ... ops-safer/

Report on making F1 pit stops safer. Quite like the idea of limiting the number of mechanics. Very sensible.

[aral]

This debate started off with the fact that a wheel came off in the pits. Yes, a wheel can loosen in a race, but in practically all cases, the driver has noticed the difference in handling, when a nut loosened, and I cannot remember the last time a wheel flew off without warning (apart from Rosbergs). Because of nuts loosening, it became a requirement to fit a mechanical locking pin. However, with the advent of superfast pit stops, an automatic lock began to be used. THAT is the problem!

In 2008 we saw Heikki Kovalainen and Lewis Hamilton having wheel nuts coming loose in Barcelona and at the Nürburgring due to weak wheel rims (a layer of laquer was applied in a faulty way) if my memory serves me right. In 2009 Alonso had a loose wheel nut which flew away in turn five in Hungary and made the wheel fly away in turn seven. Alonso told the team that he thought he had a puncture but they did not tell him he had a loose wheel nut. So if a team is vicious enough a similar incident can happen again. This year you had wheels coming loose on Michael Schumacher's and Sebastian Vettel's cars during a race. So it is not something that is unlikely to happen with the 2010 wheel nut mechanism.

If pit stops were subjected to a compulsory minimum time, then it could be ensured that a proper lock was put on the nut. An electronic device (if it was even possible) would bring further complication to the procedure, and electronics are every bit as likely to fail as a mechanical advice. And then, would all other formulae have to follow suit??
Autogyro, we can agree to disagree, but I can see absolutely no way in which a system such as you are suggesting, could work. Someone likened it to a tyre pressure sensor, but they work on an entirely different principle.

I would find a compulsory tyre stop time ridiculous. I'm quite confident that most viewers would also find that against F1 ethos. Besides the whole tyre change is artificial and only there to create drama and talking points for the tyre manufacturer.

Regarding the comparability of a tyre pressure sensor and a wheel nut torque sensor I see no difference. Both devices pick up a mechanical strain and transmit it with a little wireless sonsor to the SECU. The difference is entirely in the mechanical adaptation of the sensor and in the logic of the software. The device would actually be fail safe by design. If the signal from one wheel nut is failing to transmit the whole car will be immobilized in the pit stop. Obviously one has to consider slightly different strategies if the signal gets lost during a race.

In Alonsos case he knew he had something wrong, but elected to continue at racing speed. In the other cases you mention, the wheels did not come off and cause a danger.

sorry that you find my comment "ridiculous". Surely everyone is entitled to an opinion without such scorn?

Timed pitstops are currently used in other formulae, and seem to work. After all, this is a race and should be one on track, and not by seeing which pitcrew can make the least mistakes. Maybe pit stops should be banned altogether, so we can get back to REAL racing.

And I may be wrong, but aren't tyre pressure sensors either internal pressure sensors, or rolling radius sensors, but are not based on a physical contact sensor?

[WhiteBlue]

I don't find your comment ridiculous. I find the concept of making a pitstop and then taking the competition out of it ridiculous. This doesn't mean a personal criticism. Please, do not understand my comment as personal. I just find this idea totally inappropriate with the tradition of F1. I agree that someone with a less traditional understanding of F1 may find the idea suitable.

Pressure sensors typically measure the deformation of a membrane. Piezo sensors for high pressure measure the force on a crystal and the change of a piezo electrical load caused by this. So it is very similar to any other mechanical system that measures displacement, strain or deformation. It is just an issue of a suitable mechanical interface. Other physical systems use the Hall effect or strain gauge arrays to measure the mechanical values.

[aral]

I agree that someone with a less traditional understanding of F1 may find the idea suitable.

I have followed F1 since its inception, so my viewpoint is far from "less than traditional". F1 nowadays is far removed from its traditional base, therefore "less traditional" measures are fully acceptable, and must be considered. Please allow others to have an considered opinion.

[xpensive]

I agree that someone with a less traditional understanding of F1 may find the idea suitable.

I have followed F1 since its inception, so my viewpoint is far from "less than traditional". F1 nowadays is far removed from its traditional base, therefore "less traditional" measures are fully acceptable, and must be considered. Please allow others to have an considered opinion.

I agree completely gil, accepting other people's opinion is not a given for everyone at this forum, xpression like "ridicilous" and "there is no point to discuss with you" are read a little too often.

OT however, I think the problems with the tyre-changing might be that without refuelling, the stress is enormous, the other that today's wheel-nuts seem to have an xtremely steep thread, even a double such, in order to speed up mounting.
The latter means that the thread's self-locking effect is very dependant on torque applied.

I've heard about the mechanical "locking-device" though, does anyone have info on that?

[WhiteBlue]

It is a shame that everything I say is taken personal, even things that are very obviously a criticism of a proposed sporting rule. I have attacked the post and not the poster as it is our tradition on F1technical. I will always respect the views of other users here on F1technical and if we can't find common ground I will agree to disagree. I will explain it one more time and this time in detail why a minimum timed pit stop is against the spirit of GP racing and should not be introduced.

I consider artificial pit stops for refueling and tyre changes as contrary to the best practice in racing. An F1 race should be about on track battles and passing between drivers and not about stopping. If you have to make the dreaded stops for whatever reasons - and most are commercial anyway - you want them at least to be a team contest for speed to provide a bit of a competitive element that gets lost when drivers are out of the action in a stop. To eliminate even that competitive element takes the last bit of racing spirit out of pit stops. The problems of wheel nuts not getting torqued up should be fixed by technical means - whatever is necessary. That could be a mandatory thread pitch or monitoring systems or whatever is effective.

Perhaps I should not have called the idea to make such minimum timed stops ridiculous. On second thought it actually looks depressing for me. The sport should rather get rid of the artificial pit stops and back to a formula that enables the drivers to race each others for 300 kms for our entertainment. That would be exciting and sensible at the same time.

[andrew]

Minimum timed pitstops maybe are "not in the spirit" of F1 but they would be safer in allowing the mechanics more time to complete their individual tasks and reduce the liklihod of wayward wheels. I actually like the idea as it makes a lot of sense.

[Just_a_fan]

The idea of a compulsory minimum time for pitstops is a good one for two reasons:
1. It removes the 'rush risk' that leads to wheels being incorrectly fitted
2. It reduces the likelihood of passing in the pits - if two cars come in nose-to-tail then they will leave nose-to-tail. This increases the pressure on the driver to pass on track which might help overtaking. It will also make it less likely for a car to be released in to the immediate path of another (although this could still happen where there are lots of cars in the pits e.g. safety cars or weather changes).

As it happens, I quite like the "will he get out first, won't he" of closely run pit stops but I can see merit in the idea of enforced time limits.

For those who decry it as "not traditional" or whatever, I point you to the use of a pit lane speed limiter. This is not traditional either but we accept it as a necessary protection for the mechanics. Why shouldn't they also be protected from flawed pit stops too?

[WhiteBlue]

For those who decry it as "not traditional" or whatever, I point you to the use of a pit lane speed limiter. This is not traditional either but we accept it as a necessary protection for the mechanics. Why shouldn't they also be protected from flawed pit stops too?

Pit visits are unavoidable. It follows that there is no substitute for a pit lane speed limit. Mass stops for tyre changes and unsuitable wheel nut threads are entirely avoidable by sensible rules. So if the safety problem is inherently caused by bad rule making one should not create more bad rules but look at the root cause.

[ArvinSR]

Personally, I think that the timed pit stops would make the entire experience less of a spectacle as we have to remember that F1 is also a team sport, and the pit crews being part of the team must have the opportunity to excel in their art. The drivers show their stuff on the track, race engineers/technical staff show their stuff in/on the car, therefore its only fair that the pit crews have the ability to go guns without any time limitation.

[myurr]

Perhaps an alternative solution would be an FIA standard wheel gun, nut and locking mechanism that does away with some of the risk taking in current designs and focuses on absolute safety instead. I'd be happiest if this was farmed out to one of the teams, like the SECU, rather than an external contractor like the fuel rigs that never really worked that well.

Alternatively it could be something that FOTA mandate and regulate so that all the teams are happy with the design.

[mx_tifoso]

I've moved the posts which only talked about someones age into the "'Completely out of thread' thread". No more of that please.

[flynfrog]

Perhaps an alternative solution would be an FIA standard wheel gun, nut and locking mechanism that does away with some of the risk taking in current designs and focuses on absolute safety instead. I'd be happiest if this was farmed out to one of the teams, like the SECU, rather than an external contractor like the fuel rigs that never really worked that well.

Alternatively it could be something that FOTA mandate and regulate so that all the teams are happy with the design.

Why not let the teams decide how to best keep there wheels on. Its in there best interested not to have them fall off. You people act as if there is a rule to fix it it will never happen. We don't have to have a rule for everything.

[Pingguest]

A minimum pit stop time sounds very artificial to me. Wouldn't it be a better idea just to get rid pit stops?