Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

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747heavy
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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n smikle wrote:
tok-tokkie wrote:Rory Byrne is married to a Thai woman. They live there. His interest is scuba diving. I don't think he would go back to much involvement in F1 - he has moved on from that phase of his life.
So why the emphasis the wife being Thai woman? Are Thai women aligned with certain things in Europe?
@n smikle

I think we have a missunderstanding here. I don´t think tok-tokkie wanted to imply anything in his comment.
I think it was only made in regards/response to the "Byrne is fishing off the coast of South Africa" comment in another post above.
As to correct his current location, and giving the reason why he would live in Thailand.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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zeph
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Re: Mercedes GP

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xpensive wrote: They will never beat McLaren, not in a million years.
Famous last words....

Stranger things have happened, really. And it is a pretty good team.

donskar
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Re: Mercedes GP

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A brilliant post by marcush (IMHO):
so lets combine:
Michael Schumacher ...the average talented driver got help from three amateurs in Racecarengineering ,namely Rory Byrne,a chemist ,Ross Brawn a machinist,and Pat Symmonds to win 2 of his 7titles...to go on with 2 of them to ferrari to bag another 5 .. .More to it Pat Symmonds was leading Renault when Alonso bagged his 2 titles..
so lets count ...we had :2 Williams ,3Mclaren Championships ,and 1 Ferrari Championship without them being involved since 1994 ..I might have forgotten some ,but the pattern is clear:
If you want to win the championship ,avoid hiring a doctor to lead your technical group and find a driver that is not overly talented..or adaptable(?)..

So the secret of Ferrari's success was the formerly unheralded . . .

ALDO COSTA!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Mercedes GP

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:I tire greatly of having to explain everything in minute detail. If you understand the timescale and the F1 car development gestation period why would you argue?
You're not describing anything in minute detail. All you're doing is giving a catalogue of excuses for a team that has a history of failure and of snatching defeat from victory, and covering your ears to things you don't want to hear.

The Mercedes team is the very same Honda team (technically) that produced that pile of dog turd that Jenson Button had to drive in 2007 and 2008 - with Honda's budget. They got lucky with a diffuser and above all a front-wing that worked with the rear end. That's all the 2009 Brawn was. They've continued the form this year that they showed as Honda with zero improvement, even with Mercedes's money being confirmed a long time before it was announced in 2009. They did exactly the same thing after 2006 when they won their first race. Honda also gave Brawn a significant investment to keep going for 2009. The budget excuses don't wash because there simply isn't any evidence for them, and the team didn't improve even when they had a sizeable budget. The technical team is still pretty much exactly the same.
10) The car was designed with an inherrant flaw based on some tyre specs that Brawns team got wrong(they admit that)Further to this the cars aero concept has failed to work.
Errrrr, yer, because this is the same team that has designed a catalogue of cars with inherent design flaws in previous years. 2009 was where they got two big things right and that was it. There is a lot to be concerned about if you're Mercedes. The leopard doesn't change its spots.

You keep talking about development and four or five years of building but the team has already had that when they were Honda and they're now a winning team. It wasn't as if they had to completely redesign the car this year as they had to for 2009. Frankly, that is not what Mercedes thought they had bought into, they're not going to wait four or five years, and that is something you don't want to face, for whatever reason.
xpensive wrote:They will never beat McLaren, not in a million years.
Yes, and look at McLaren. The odds of them winning have just got a whole lot worse even for them because the competition is far greater. It's at least three times as hard for Schumacher and Brawn to start winning with Mercedes as it was when they started in a similar position at Ferrari. The odds are simply that much greater, so I see no reason to be optimistic.

Mercedes clearly thought they'd bought a winning team and were going to turn up this year with Schumacher and carry on. I just don't know what they were thinking.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Mercedes GP

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donskar wrote:So the secret of Ferrari's success was the formerly unheralded . . .

ALDO COSTA!
No, it's Nikolas Tombazis, which is why Ferrari scrambled to get him back after the 2005 disaster. That's a name that hasn't been mentioned from Schumacher's past amongst Brawn, Symonds and Byrne.

Ferrari had better not piss in his cheerios, mark my words.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP

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Expensive,

The core of the design team are still there apart from 1 notable...Zander, Brawn made sure he kept his b rightest and most talented.
While that is'nt saying much for this year, it does for 2009.

Lets look at this logically for a minute. Mercedes were rightfully peeved with Mclaren for 3 massive reasons.
The first being Spygate, no explanation needed.
Second is Liegate, following hot on the heels of Spygate, again no explanation required.
Finally there was the divergence of Mclaren and Mercedes road car plans. We will see a head to head between a Mercedes and a Mclaren on the road. This Stuttgart was aware of 2 or 3 years ago.

Hence an SLS AMG to counter the MP4-12C. And I bet the Mercedes not only outsells McLaren 5 to 1, it will be more profitable per unit.

Which leads me to the "split", and the opportunism of Mercedes to get a team on the cheap, with the ability to match the big boys, Brawn GP.
Total credit for wins, and less money spent and more money earned.
They are free of having to pay Mclaren 70 million per season no questions asked. This money goes straight into their own F1 project. In addition their revenues will be their own to keep, so this isnt costing Mercedes as much as when they were with Mclaren.

Mercedes will want to continue its high profile within F1 as it adds prestige to a prestige brand. Ferrari can testify. "Lesser" Brands also get huge exposure, look at Renault, and their drive into the east. Its fuelled partially by exposure in F1.
With the looming resource restriction, how do you think McLarten will fare?
McLaren maybe quicker next year but they will have to make the cuts on 1st january to 400 staff. Mercedes are already there and are in the top 4 competing against teams with 50% more staff and resources.

Mercedes GP have a rudimentary F-duct, and where one of the first to do so, behind Sauber(who had inside info with De La Rosa in on the whole thing) and obviously Mclaren.
Their blown exhaust worked really well at Silverstone, less so at other venues, but with the 50% less staff back at Brackley compare to Red Bull and Mclaren, thats not really bad is it?


So to conclude, Mercedes bought a team for 70 million, using money that Mclaren owe them, and will continue to fund it with money from them until 2012.
200 million last I checked.
Secondly Mercedes are a blue chip brand that has attracted big blue chip companies to underwrite the expenses. So cost isnt an issue.
Mclaren still carry Mercedes Badges and paint scheme(silver), so they win Mercedes win. Until Mclaren ditch both and pay Mercedes off fully.
Thirdly 2011 will be a most interesting time to see how Mercedes will "fix" the problems that they are currently experiencing, and how Red Bull McLaren and especially Ferrari Perform under the resource restriction.

The first half of 2011 I expect business as usual, but as the restriction sets in things will get very spicy I think.

My 50 quids worth :lol:
More could have been done.
David Purley

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote:
donskar wrote:So the secret of Ferrari's success was the formerly unheralded . . .

ALDO COSTA!
No, it's Nikolas Tombazis, which is why Ferrari scrambled to get him back after the 2005 disaster. That's a name that hasn't been mentioned from Schumacher's past amongst Brawn, Symonds and Byrne.

Ferrari had better not piss in his cheerios, mark my words.
Don't forget unlimited testing at their own track, unlimited funds, an unlimited co-driver and unlimited support from MrM when things were threatening to go seriously wrong, seg. Rory Byrne was no slouch either, for a chemist that is.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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GTO
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Re: Mercedes GP

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xpensive wrote: I couldn't disagree more, I think that Daimler made a miscalculation of biblical proportions when they bought Brawn, thinking they paid their way directly into the winners circle at a bargain price, at a time when others were getting out.

Dragging the 7-time WDC out of retirement underlines they were thinking with their hearts, or arses, take your pick.

They will never beat McLaren, not in a million years.
Never say never dude. 2009 season proved it. There will continue to be cycles of team failure, strength & domination.

I don't believe for a moment they were expecting (grand hopes & dreams perhaps, but not legitimate expectations) to be in winners circle in the first year of a marriage of two cultures, with new partners, new drivers, new team personnel & new car. After ending a 14 yr. relationship with the mighty McL that bore only 3 WDC, do you really believe this new prtnership with Brawn was going to slide onto the podiums let alone wins?

Along with young, emerging Rosberg, 7-time WDC provided instant team credibility, experience & race winning hope for both engine & chasis factory personel. It was geat coup. They siezed the opportunity to try to improve & succeed. If I was in Haug's shoes, I would have done it exactly the same. Halfway into season, being 4th in Constructors title race is not too shabby for a new team that has endured two consecutive yrs. of ownership takeover.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP

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Basically segedunum,

What you are saying is that this initiative was always doomed to failure, because the team is Honda in disguise and that 2009 was a flash in the pan right?

Well May I point out that Regardless of what you may think of 2009, BrawnGP won the most and won both championships. That Brawn is behind this, and that you choose to call it a flash in the pan is pretty dismisive of Brawn.

And To say they only won because of this or that is pretty standard for any champion.
Ferrari only won because of their budget.
Renault only won because of their tyres(lol what about the other michelin runners)
Williams only won because of Renault
Mclaren only won because of Honda

So what man? They won!

And 4th this year isnt as bad as years previous to 2009. ie 2007 and 2008.
Thats after all thats happened.

They are actually dissapointed in 4th, they want more. Mark these words carefully, Mercedes will be better in 2011.
More could have been done.
David Purley

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Mercedes GP

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote: ...

So to conclude, Mercedes bought a team for 70 million, using money that Mclaren owe them, and will continue to fund it with money from them until 2012.
200 million last I checked.

...

My 50 quids worth :lol:
McLaren ows Mercedes 200 million something, where did you get this info JET?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

zeph
zeph
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Re: Mercedes GP

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote: Which leads me to the "split", and the opportunism of Mercedes to get a team on the cheap, with the ability to match the big boys, Brawn GP.
Total credit for wins, and less money spent and more money earned.
They are free of having to pay Mclaren 70 million per season no questions asked. This money goes straight into their own F1 project. In addition their revenues will be their own to keep, so this isnt costing Mercedes as much as when they were with Mclaren.

Mercedes will want to continue its high profile within F1 as it adds prestige to a prestige brand.

With the looming resource restriction, how do you think McLarten will fare?
McLaren maybe quicker next year but they will have to make the cuts on 1st january to 400 staff. Mercedes are already there and are in the top 4 competing against teams with 50% more staff and resources.

Thirdly 2011 will be a most interesting time to see how Mercedes will "fix" the problems that they are currently experiencing, and how Red Bull McLaren and especially Ferrari Perform under the resource restriction.
This is pretty much what I remember from Mercedes GP's original statement when they first went public last year.

I would not write them off quite yet.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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n smikle wrote:So why the emphasis the wife being Thai woman? Are Thai women aligned with certain things in Europe?
I think the point here was that Rory Byrne is currently a long way from being aligned with Europe, or Formula 1.

segedunum
segedunum
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Re: Mercedes GP

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:What you are saying is that this initiative was always doomed to failure, because the team is Honda in disguise and that 2009 was a flash in the pan right?
Yep, just as they lost their way after 2006.
Well May I point out that Regardless of what you may think of 2009, BrawnGP won the most and won both championships. That Brawn is behind this, and that you choose to call it a flash in the pan is pretty dismisive of Brawn.
This is the problem. You try and paint Brawn as the winning team that Mercedes obviously thought they'd bought when it suits you, but when it becomes obvious that it's going to be a long time until Mercedes start winning because of their own screw-ups you then start talking about four or five year plans until the team starts winning and everything is still hunky dory. Do you not see the disconnect there?

Mercedes need a strong technical director like Adrian Newey who is going to hustle the team along, they need a head of aerodynamics like Peter Promodrou at Red Bull or Nikolas Tombazis at Ferrari. Heck, McLaren currently need all of those guys and they're a long way ahead of Mercedes. Ross Brawn has little to do with this now he's Team Principal. He can't micro-manage everything. Given what they need to spend the money they threw at McLaren will look like chicken feed. I hope they enjoy running their own team. :D

Giblet
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Re: Mercedes GP MGP W01

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We don't need two legends coming out of retirement and tarnishing their reputations on the same team, do we?
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Mercedes GP

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xpensive
Im using very crude mathmetics and also using basic American business valuation formula.
2.5 times turnover is what the general valuation can be.
If it trades internationally it is more prone to certain factors so this can be downgraded to 2 if the company is solvent and has a track record of making ends meet.

In this instance Mclaren have that record and it is clean.

"McLaren's biggest revenue generator is its F1 team, which provided 64 per cent of the group's £264.9m turnover in 2008."

Mercedes owne(d) 40% of the F1 side so you can double the 250 million to 500. 40% of this is 200 million.

40 million either side of my figure and I wouldnt argue.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 40508.html

Note that the intellectual, land and building and cash in the bank valuation is just shy of 200million. This is not "business valuation" And does not consider Turnover or profit, which is not only different to cash in the bank, its the actual business.
More could have been done.
David Purley