Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[xpensive]

When in total agreement with seg of course, I just wonder what incentives and arguments were going around in the Daimler boardroom? What made them do something this stupid after enjoying fifteen straight seasons of sucess with McLaren, could it be a case of Norbert Haug's ego, that he was beginning to look at Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarch thinking, "I can do that"?

Like one Mario Theissen perhaps?

[zeph]

I think you misunderstand JET.

Mercedes-Benz wanted out of their deal with McLaren. They wanted to brand their own car, and McLaren refused to become a works team.

BrawnGP was a very attractive business proposition. It was a smaller team already operating on a budget similar to those that were to be imposed by the FIA's new restrictions. A team ready for the future, if you will. And champions at that.

The big teams are still operating on big budgets with a large staff. When the budget caps are in place it remains to be seen how they will fare under the restrictions. MercedesGP is already operating under those conditions and is 4th in the constructors' championship.

So, in fact, they look pretty good for the future. Mercedes-Benz got a really good deal, and even if McLaren wins they still look good.

From a business point of view, the acquisition of BrawnGP was a no-brainer.

I think they are in it for the long haul, and I would not count them out yet.

[ggajic]

In 1996. when Schumacher moved to Ferrari I think that Byrne stayed at Benetton and tailored car for Berger and Alesi. And they complained how they couldnt handle car. So at Benetton they confess that car was designed with Schumacher driving style preferences. It is quite possible that no one can tailor car in which Shumacher is able to extract his maximum.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You try and paint Brawn as the winning team that Mercedes obviously thought they'd bought when it suits you, but when it becomes obvious that it's going to be a long time until Mercedes start winning because of their own screw-ups you then start talking about four or five year plans until the team starts winning and everything is still hunky dory.

Where did I try paint Brawn as the "saviour"? I used facts that actually happened.
He won with Honda cash and a Mercedes V8 in 2009.
Care to argue that?

The team are in 4th position after a full year of uncertainty. This isnt disgraceful is it? If so then Ferrari after must be disgraced last year finishing fourth with 1000 people working towards victory....why do they bother eh?

You are not seeing this for what it is, a team in rebuilding phase.

Those names you mentioned would be nice, but I dont think that it would be very plausible just yet. Maybe, maybe not. We will see what Mercedes have planned.

And my most pertinant point is yet to be answered, mentioned or even acknowledged.
The resource restriction.
Where will that leave McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull in relation to Mercedes?
Do you seriously think that in 2011, these teams will stretch their advantage over a team who currently operate around the 400 figure, having to shed hundreds of jobs to get to this figure themselves?

[xpensive]

...

You are not seeing this for what it is, a team in rebuilding phase.

...

But this just it JET, how can a team possibly find themselves in a "rebuilding phase" the year after they won the WDC and WCC, unless their 2009 season was a complete anomaly due to the weirdest of circumstances?

Regarding the 200 mill, are you certain that McLaren have to buy Mercedes out?

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

When in total agreement with seg of course, I just wonder what incentives and arguments were going around in the Daimler boardroom? What made them do something this stupid after enjoying fifteen straight seasons of sucess with McLaren, could it be a case of Norbert Haug's ego, that he was beginning to look at Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarch thinking, "I can do that"?

Like one Mario Theissen perhaps?

xpensive

I dont share your outlook on this at all. What you are alluding to is very much based on your personal feeling that Haug wants his own racing team to fuel his ego.

Well again lets look at the facts.

Haug was Mercedes sport head honcho since 1990. He has been in and around the Mclaren garage for 16 years, not once have I heard a peep of Haugs ego getting in the way. Not once.
And being a German in an english team with a belly a walrus would be proud of that takes some doing!

Secondly, Does Brawn not conduct all Mercedes GP press releases to his tune?
Haug lets him get on with it.
Any questions of Haug's "ego" are very wide of the mark in my opinion, he is well loved within F1 and rightly so, he is one of the good guys.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 628153.stm

The guy basically takes everything on the chin after a Mercedes benz engined 123.

Criticise The car or the team, but Haug? Come on xpensive, you love him really

[747heavy]

When in total agreement with seg of course, I just wonder what incentives and arguments were going around in the Daimler boardroom? What made them do something this stupid after enjoying fifteen straight seasons of sucess with McLaren, could it be a case of Norbert Haug's ego, that he was beginning to look at Ron Dennis and Martin Whitmarch thinking, "I can do that"?

Like one Mario Theissen perhaps?

It could be Xpensive, it´s a creditable argument, but I don´t think that´s the case.
I think (don´t know !) it´s more that Mercedes didn´t want to share the limelight with McLaren any longer. Just beeing seen as a engine supplier.
So, yes I think ego, is part of it, but not so much on the side of Norbert Haugg.
Sure, and I have no doubt about that, to win a WDC/WCC as Mercedes GP and if possible with M.S.(but this is unlikely, that´s why they have Nico) would be the centre piece of his professional life.
But if he would be after the glory, he would not hire Brawn as team principal. IMO

After this (which I think will take a minimun of 3-5 years), he will sail into the sunset, and look back and be proud of what he has achieved, bringing Mercedes back into F1 and make them win in F1.

I agree, that BrawnGP is not the bargin, it looked like - far from.
But if they wanted to become MGP, after seeing that Ron Dennis would not sell McLaren to them(which would have been the better option IMHO), what would be the alternatives?

Applying as a new team? Bying Sauber (in terms of infrastructure, this would be the better option IMO)?

I think/hope, they have a long term plan, because it is unlikely that they will dominate F1 in the short term, but I would not rule out that they get there one day.
And I can see value in this approach for them, see/ask Ferrari.
But sure as hell, it will cost them money, blood and sweat to go there.
As long as they show a upwards trend, I think they will do o.k., but they need to be in the top 3 next year, and be on the podium on merrit/pace regulary.

Thankfully the global economy and the automotive industry has recovered a bit from the 2007/2008 crisis, so they have a little bit breathing space now.
It was close for Mercedes to pull out of F1 and the DTM (where the have been beaten by Audi in the last 3 years) at the end of 2008 - very close. Ever wondered why the 2009 DTM season started so late?

At the moment I think, they have a bit room to manouver and would look like fools if the throw in the towel now. Good things take a while.
But if another global crisis rocks the industry in the next couple of years, all bets are off. IMHO

[ESPImperium]

I see where JET is coming from, but there are flaws in his argument.

His sums are roughly correct. But the argument of why Mercedes wanted away from McLaren is another. The reason is McLaren has chosen to use McLaren branded but Zytec tuned BMW engines for their MP/4-12C instead of the offer of a bespoke Mercedes engine in the back of it. The blockage was that McLaren couldnt rr-brand the engine, it had to stay a Mercedes for the first reason. The second reason is that Mercedes were under the illusion that the McLaren sports car wouldnt be launched into the ever crouded sector of the market the Mercedes Gullwing was to be realeased into, so would have to compete against that as well as the new Ferarri.

McLaren have bought out all of the 40% of the F1 side of the buisness that Mercedes owned but 8% by early-mid season. This will be bought out by the end of the season. In the sevrance package is the extencive usage of Mercedes engines till 2015, without loss of technichal support, for the Mercedes branding to be on the McLaren until the aggreement finishes.

The Brawn GP opertunity presented itself better to Stutgart better than staying with McLaren as Mercedes are going to start to operate at new lower levels and this takes time, from the levels that have been seen in the last decade in F1, and cost for cost, the Brawn team its cheaper than the McLaren team, simply as they can attract sponsorship and technichal partnerships that they couldnt, as well as be the makers of their own destiny and not rely on a third party.

Mercedes will be better next year, no doubt, but its all down to how the man management side of things gets on and how the Technichal department can be sorted out, as this is the area that needs the overhaul, a clear man at the helm, a clear way forward and a clear drive. This is where i think Mercedes are concentrating on at the moment, getting the facilities up dated. CFD facilities and wind tunnels at Mercedes need investment as they lack behind even Renault and Sauber now in this department. I think Mercedes are getting as much done at present for the new car to reap the developments for this.

Mercedes needs time, on average it takes arroun3-5 years of solid leadership and know-how for race wins to happen, if i were Mercedes if follow the Red Bull blue print for this.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

...

You are not seeing this for what it is, a team in rebuilding phase.

...

But this just it JET, how can a team possibly find themselves in a "rebuilding phase" the year after they won the WDC and WCC, unless their 2009 season was a complete anomaly due to the weirdest of circumstances?

Regarding the 200 mill, are you certain that McLaren have to buy Mercedes out?

xpensive,

November 2009 with incertainty over the team and a car on the drawing board after the staff had been cut to around 400 staff, is reason enough.
Mercedes inherited the situation and had little or no time to do anything about the 2010 car. And its good to see that with half the staff they can actually be more competitive in 2010 than they were in 2007 and 2008 with half the manpower and even less money.

Mclaren need to have bought Mercedes out by 2011 according to all reports I have read.

[Giblet]

Mercedes GP will get better next year likely, but it is equally as likely that they won't based on the history of the legacy Honda staff.

Even so, they have a large hill to climb. They don't just have to better themselves, they have to better at least one of the current big 3 of Mclaren, Ferrari, and Red Bull who are also probably going to go as good or better next year.

I think maintaining their 3th status could be hard. Force India, Williams, and a few others are nipping at the heels of everyone.

[747heavy]

Hi JET

You win my Mercedes fan of the centaury award, really I admire your stamia and dedication. And I really mean it, I´m not taking the p..... out of you.

While i agree with a lot you say, there is one thing that puzzles me a bit.
Why do you think, that the cost cap regulations are working in Mercedes favour?
I´m not so sure about this.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

ESP

With due respect, James Allen, Alan Henry and a few other notables have all given the reason for the split as the divergence in Mercedes and Mclaren production car plans as the underlying reason for the split.
It started when plans were drawn up for an SLR replacement, in 2006. Mclaren had their ideas and Mercedes their own.
The split was at boardroom level, and Mercedes refused to go along with Mclarens plans for a mid engined supercar.

Mclaren pressed on with the plans, much to Mercedes fury and with the advent of the scandals in 2007 and 2008 the relationship was not as sweet as it had been.

Furthermore, the plans for Mclarens engine were all drawn up by Ricardo engineering with some of the work outsourced to Mahle. I have this on memory from a discussion I had on these pages on some Mclaren topic a while back.
I may stand to be corrected but Zytek did the KERS units with Mercedes, and didnt have much to do with the 3.8 litre V8 found in the 12C.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Hi JET

You win my Mercedes fan of the centaury award, really I admire your stamia and dedication. And I really mean it, I´m not taking the p..... out of you.

While i agree with a lot you say, there is one thing that puzzles me a bit.
Why do you think, that the cost cap regulations are working in Mercedes favour?
I´m not so sure about this.

Thankyou jumbo

Because they already operating at these levels(circa420 staff) and Red Bull(580) Mclaren(600) and Ferrari(900!!!!!!!!!!) will have to reduce these to be in line for the rules next year.

Its a bit of a grey area, as it was a leaked document from Lola and a bit of good journalism form auto motor und sport that revealed the figure to be a limit of 400 people.

It isnt been discussed as a gamechanger, but I see the staff limits as somthing of a revolution in F1. Not just in terms of Mercedes, but also Sauber Force india etc will all be able to compete IF what has been revealed to be true.....

[zeph]

According to Mercedes, the decision to step up their level of Formula One involvement was prompted by recent agreements on ways of cutting expenditure in the sport and by the higher levels of income afforded to teams following the signing of the new Concorde Agreement earlier this year.


Brawn GP’s UK factory in Brackley is less than 30 miles from Mercedes’ Formula One engine plant at Brixworth, which should make for a highly-efficient operation to be coordinated by the familiar figure of Norbert Haug, Vice-President of Mercedes-Benz Motorsport.

“It is our target to develop a model for our Formula One activities which will initially be run with significantly reduced budgets by Mercedes-Benz and which, in the foreseeable future, will be self-financing,” commented Haug.

Regarding the 200 mill, are you certain that McLaren have to buy Mercedes out?

Mercedes will also continue to supply long-term partners McLaren with engines until at least 2015, but the company’s 40 percent shareholding in the team will be reacquired by McLaren over the next two years.

source:
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/ ... 10220.html

It was a sound business proposition.

[xpensive]

...

Regarding the 200 mill, are you certain that McLaren have to buy Mercedes out?

Mercedes will also continue to supply long-term partners McLaren with engines until at least 2015, but the company’s 40 percent shareholding in the team will be reacquired by McLaren over the next two years.
...

Right, first of all we don't know how 40% of the company is valued. Secondly, bookkeeping-wise it is not obvious that such a sale will be recorded as a profit that can be spent at Mercedes' discretion. Thirdly, spending said funds on the Brackley-squad should perhaps be beheld as an investment with a rather high risk-factor.

Besides, I would xpect that the engine-supply to McLaren until 2015 will cost them a few bucks as well, no?