Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Well thats not really a fair comparison xpensive.

BMW had a much larger budget and operation, so the stakes were far higher.
Mercedes didnt need to spend 200 million buying the team, then a further 100 million upgrading it. Nor do they have the annual 200 million budget BMW had.

Allied to this is the fact all teams recieve more money under the new concorde agreement.

Mercedes have openly stated that after 3 years if they havent won they will be off. Dont you think that is better than commiting for x amount of years only to leave the next year?
At least Mercedes have set themselves a public target, that if not achieved will mean the demise of their participation. As their slogan says "the best, or nothing at all".

3 years xpensive, give them that. After that, if they arent in F1 we will have been forewarned.

[mep]

Well you know what JET, we have a saying in Sweden which goes something like "Face of a hockey-game can change fast".

Wonder who on the BMW-board in Munich was for entering F1 as a factory team in 2006 and if the same individuals voted against only a few years later?

Yea
Just think about Porsche and Wendelin Wiedeking.

[zeph]

Porsche is not even gonna touch F1 with a 10-foot pole. They have nothing to gain and all to lose.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Yea
Just think about Porsche and Wendelin Wiedeking.

Really?

Wiedeking turned Porsche around to the worlds most profitable car maker. He expanded the range relying on a single model(911) and made Porsche far more stable with the introduction of the boxster and Cayenne and now the Panamera.
So in terms of automotive achievements, Wiedeking is beyond reproach.

Where did he go wrong? Thinking that leveraging your profitable company to the hilt to take over Volkswagen Gmbh was his mistake. So he is a greedy bugger then, but Porsche are in rude health because of him.

Who would of thought a minnow could swallow a giant? Because of Wiedeking that was almost possible.
Was he done for fiddling the books?

Suffice to say, as Zeph said, Porsche will not be entering F1 any time this decade!
So I dont see the relevance of comparing Wiedeking and Porsche or the Quandts and BMW to Mercedes and Zetsche.

[aral]

Yea
Just think about Porsche and Wendelin Wiedeking.

Really?



So I dont see the relevance of comparing Wiedeking and Porsche or the Quandts and BMW to Mercedes and Zetsche.

Of course there is no relevance. Quandts OWN BMW, Wiedeking and Zetsche are only chairmen or CEOs of a company. and are/were responsible to their boards. The last CEO of Daimler got his marching orders, and this was after his tie up with McLaren. Zetsche could be ousted by the board this year, or next year, particularly if he cannot live up to his promises. The moustache may be intriguing, but it doesn't make the man.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Of course there is no relevance. Quandts OWN BMW, Wiedeking and Zetsche are only chairmen or CEOs of a company

The Quandts are on the board and make the final decision, Norbert Reithofer is the appointed CEO, but if you are saying that he has the same clout as Zetsche and Wiedeking you would be very wrong.
My BMW fanatic friend even says "behind every great BMW decision there's a Quandt!"
If they dont like it, it doesnt happen.

Zetsche and Wiedeking(pre-sacking) have the clout to force things through. Reithofer does not.

The last CEO of Daimler got his marching orders, and this was after his tie up with McLaren.

What has this to do with F1? He was sacked because Mercedes were behind their key rivals in terms of sales and percieved quality, and also the share price crash after the Chrysler debacle in 2005.

Zetsche could be ousted by the board this year, or next year, particularly if he cannot live up to his promises. The moustache may be intriguing, but it doesn't make the man.

[-X
Do you really think Zetsche is up for the chop? He has turned Mercedes around not only in quality, but also sales.
The C-Class and E-Class are all on target to be the most succesful iterations of their model range ever. AMG has been given free reign to chase Ferrari, Smart has turned a profit for the first time and more is in the pipeline.

He will of course not be sacked, He is a succesful CEO and Mercedes have ridden one of the worst sales crisis in 2008 (credit crisis) to be posting its best ever results!
How do you come to the conclusion he could be sacked?
That Mercedes GP or Maybach arent performing? Big deal, he inherited Maybach and Mercedes GP is not draining any of Daimlers 1.1 billion profit PER QUARTER!
Its near self sustaining.

I would like to hear your reasoning, as Im always open to knowing more.

[aral]

Of course there is no relevance. Quandts OWN BMW, Wiedeking and Zetsche are only chairmen or CEOs of a company

The Quandts are on the board and make the final decision, Norbert Reithofer is the appointed CEO, but if you are saying that he has the same clout as Zetsche and Wiedeking you would be very wrong.
My BMW fanatic friend even says "behind every great BMW decision there's a Quandt!"
If they dont like it, it doesnt happen.

Zetsche and Wiedeking(pre-sacking) have the clout to force things through. Reithofer does not.

The last CEO of Daimler got his marching orders, and this was after his tie up with McLaren.

What has this to do with F1? He was sacked because Mercedes were behind their key rivals in terms of sales and percieved quality, and also the share price crash after the Chrysler debacle in 2005.

Zetsche could be ousted by the board this year, or next year, particularly if he cannot live up to his promises. The moustache may be intriguing, but it doesn't make the man.

[-X
Do you really think Zetsche is up for the chop? He has turned Mercedes around not only in quality, but also sales.
The C-Class and E-Class are all on target to be the most succesful iterations of their model range ever. AMG has been given free reign to chase Ferrari, Smart has turned a profit for the first time and more is in the pipeline.

He will of course not be sacked, He is a succesful CEO and Mercedes have ridden one of the worst sales crisis in 2008 (credit crisis) to be posting its best ever results!
How do you come to the conclusion he could be sacked?
That Mercedes GP or Maybach arent performing? Big deal, he inherited Maybach and Mercedes GP is not draining any of Daimlers 1.1 billion profit PER QUARTER!
Its near self sustaining.

I would like to hear your reasoning, as Im always open to knowing more.

It is very difficult to have a reasoned debate with you, in view of your closed mind, in relation to Mercedes. You used Quandts as an example, and I merely pointed out that they were the OWNERS of BMW and not the CEO, which you have now acknowledged.

And when I say that Zetsche COULD be sacked, that is what I mean. As CEO, he is always open to be replaced, his position is not guaranteed.

Zetsche is now proposing a new Maybach, a serious loss leader, as you rightly point out, so he may not be infallible.

[segedunum]

The team are in 4th position after a full year of uncertainty. This isnt disgraceful is it? If so then Ferrari after must be disgraced last year finishing fourth with 1000 people working towards victory....why do they bother eh?

Mercedes will be very lucky to beat Renault to fourth this year, and Ferrari actually won a race last season. It's not just that they're fourth or fifth, it's how far behind they are when they're racing and the distance between them and winning.

You are not seeing this for what it is, a team in rebuilding phase.

A team that were champions last year are not rebuilding and that's not what Mercedes bought into. I keep repeating this and this is why we keep going around in circles. They've had a modest headcount reduction in 2009 and that's it, with their technical department and resources being largely left untouched. All Mercedes thought they had to do was guarantee their future in 2010 and give them a funding assurance in 2009 for 2010. The idea that the team is undergoing some massive upheaval, which conveniently explains this season's return to Honda form, is well wide of the mark.

And my most pertinant point is yet to be answered, mentioned or even acknowledged. The resource restriction. Where will that leave McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull in relation to Mercedes? Do you seriously think that in 2011, these teams will stretch their advantage over a team who currently operate around the 400 figure, having to shed hundreds of jobs to get to this figure themselves?

Ahhhh, yes, the resource reduction.

Anyone holding on to this as a crumb of comfort for a relative improvement in 2011 is likely to be extremely disappointed. While I am all for cost reduction, and the testing ban was totally necessary, all that will happen is that a number of people who the teams can actually do without, physios, PR people etc., will go and their technical departments and resources will be left untouched. Instead of Adrian Newey being payed £10 million he might be paid £15 million or something, and he might have some more equipment. The material point is that the total budgets will remain completely unchanged. They will just fill out into different areas.

What position would I want to be in? I'd want to be ahead and winning when the headcount restriction comes in because it means that those behind are going to have an even more difficult time catching up if they need to bring certain troubleshooters in or restructure the technical headcount, which Mercedes will have to do regardless of what headcount reductions they've already managed to achieve. Being ahead in this area is a blind alley.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

...

Zetsche is getting it right, and Maybach's footprint within Daimler is tiny. If he thinks he can turn a profit from some calamity he inhertied from Schrempp, give him a bloody chance to do so!
Its not his baby, but he will have a go at getting it right.

Mercedes GP are the same, its Zetsche's initiative. He wants it to work, and he had laid down a gauntlet to the team. I respect him for it. If thats being a fanboy, well then so be it.

...

[aral]

It is very difficult to have a reasoned debate with you, in view of your closed mind, in relation to Mercedes.

I seem to have reasonable debate with everyone else. And its not the first time you have singled me out gilgen. If you dont like it dont read it.
Im reasonable, I even crack jokes at Mercedes expense. Hardly the ramblings of someone shrouded in fanaticism.

And given the magnitude of my posts on this thread, for you to tell me that a CEO's postion is tenuous is breathtaking. A CEO's position is Tenuous when they get it wrong! Not when you are posting record results....
Zetsche is getting it right, and Maybach's footprint within Daimler is tiny. If he thinks he can turn a profit from some calamity he inhertied from Schrempp, give him a bloody chance to do so!
Its not his baby, but he will have a go at getting it right.

Mercedes GP are the same, its Zetsche's initiative. He wants it to work, and he had laid down a gauntlet to the team. I respect him for it. If thats being a fanboy, well then so be it.

But I suppose it is easy for you to sit and snipe at a target. By all means do so, but you arent adding anything of value to this thread which has now deviated far enough.

SIIIGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!

[marcush.]

tbh ,Honda before Brawn was not even scoring points on a regular base...
I´m pretty sure Mercedes is to a large degree responsible for what happened tthis year:
first of all ,they very early entered the discussion with Brawn for a buyout but they negotiated longer than useful for this years car....so Brawn did not have a
sibngle reason to spend money he did not have into 2010 but to make his own history
AND he was successful in this.
I BET he made this very clear to Mercedes from the beginning that he NEEDS ALOT OF MONEY to start the 2010 contender early to guarantee success from the outset or they would have to develop the car in season..
so too me realistically the happening of 2010 are quite logical and have nothing to do with them being idiots...they just started late with the new car as no money was coming forth..

[NewtonMeter]

A team that were champions last year are not rebuilding and that's not what Mercedes bought into. I keep repeating this and this is why we keep going around in circles. They've had a modest headcount reduction in 2009 and that's it, with their technical department and resources being largely left untouched. All Mercedes thought they had to do was guarantee their future in 2010 and give them a funding assurance in 2009 for 2010. The idea that the team is undergoing some massive upheaval, which conveniently explains this season's return to Honda form, is well wide of the mark.

If I'm not mistaken, the championship winning car last year was designed by a full compliment honda team. Unfortunately many of them had to be layed off at end of 2008 (after the car had already been designed). So that car was designed by much more than their current 420 or whatever people.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I´m pretty sure Mercedes is to a large degree responsible for what happened tthis year

[-X
November 2009 Marcush. Before this, not a single penny reached Brawn from Mercedes.

The facts, people and timelines condensed to make it simpler for some readers:

October 2007
Brawn announces the team will focus on 2009 as rule changes mean it best chance of a competive car will be total redesign to comply with 2009 regs.

*"The BGP 001 car is the result of 15 months of intensive development work and the team have been nothing less than fantastic in their commitment to producing two cars in time for the first race"
Brawn quote in Australia 2009

30th November 2008
Honda's Brackley Factory has around 800 staff.

5th December2008
Honda announce F1 departure

* within weeks 250 staff were told to find new employment bringing numbers down to 550

6th March 2009
Brawn GP created.
Brawn says the company have shed a further 100 jobs bringing numbers to 450. Thanks honda for 40 million survival loan.

July 2009
Rumours surface of Mercedes buying a share of the team. These continue to grow in strength.

13th September 2009 Italian GP
Brawn indicates that his team will require further funding to be able to take part in 2010, although his 2010 challenger is in the windtunnel and under development, his concerns are the team will not survive further than halfway through 2010 unless a title sponsor is found.

16th November 2009
Mercedes announce their "official" return. It also states that it is selling Mclaren back its 40% share for a reported £500 million(sourced from wiki) I would guess closer £200m to be the better guess.
The purchase includes the Brackley factory grounds, assets and intellectual properties(W01 and other bits n bobs)

23 December 2009
Micheal Schumacher deal announced

04 February 2009
Mercedes W01 unveiled

February testing, Mercedes have several problems with the car, due to a miscalculation for tyres usage.

And the rest is as they say, History.

[marcush.]

JET,
I fully agree with you and did not want to say anything other:

instead of committing in july when talks were already intense AND spending money for the 2010 contender they tried to get the best possible deal out of Brawn..at the end ross had no choice..he could have tried to go alone but as no title sponsor was available -virgin was never going to be enough- he had to accept what was dished out to him by the starsuits...now they got what they asked for ,in my view .I pretty much know how deals in the automotive field are negotiated and with hindsight it was almost clear what was going on ...Brawn had hoped to have a better base package but obviously they
didd not put enough recources behind the 2010 project in 2009 and made a big mistake in their basic layout for whatever reason ,and misjudged their ability to rectify that problem....all in all the car and season did not go too bad considering the circumstances and the pressure they are under.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Now if we can use this timescale, How on earth can ANYONE compare the events of december 2008 to november 2009?

BGP001 had the full compliment of Honda's clout, and a full 15 months of development.
The W01 had almost half the development time, half the staff compliment, nowhere near the budget levels and all staff looking over their shoulder wary of where the axe will fall next!

Their is no comparison, it would be stupid or misinformed to even think of comparing the 2.

Mercedes did not give any funds to Brawn while the negotiations took place for the takeover. Due diligence was conducted and Mercedes grabbed a bargain in spending around 80 million for a team that had assets worth 3 times that.
Along with 80million prize for 2010, Mercedes by default got it for near nothing.
Pay 80 million, get Brawn, then recieve 80 million prize money and sponsorships for 2010. GET THIS!

They werent so stupid as to believe, they were going to win immediatley. They were fully aware they had effectively half a team manpower wise, and that its development would have been somewhat derailed by the deprture of Zander and other technical staff through the season.

Or what some would say is that Mercedes have bought this team blindly, coaxed Schumacher back(himself blinded) and that they expected to win straight away!
Well Im very sorry, but that is just plain nonsense. Due diligence conducted by much cleverer people than you or I will bring up many things as discussed in my post.

To be honest, I expected Mercedes GP to be more competitive. Not because it's silver, not because of Schumi or Brawn, but because of that Benz V8.
These reason's are more appropriate on the W01 thread, but for making my post complete I will leave you this link from Scarbs who can explain to you, in great detail why Merceds are struggling this year.

http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/04/2 ... edictions/

And to put this in perspective, they are 4th with a few podiums this year. This is not failure by any strech of the imagination. They can and should be better, but they are doing this with 400 odd staff and a car that was designed with a flaw.
Thats not to be sniffed at.

Why not detractors would say?

Read that Scarbs link and educate yourselves on the woes that cannot be undone by mere updates or Wheelbase changes(Marcush! just kidding mate)

"To shift weight distribution 1% needs a shift of 10Kg from one axle to the other, obviously space at the axle line is limited, and so potential a greater weight within the wheelbase may be needed to achieve the same effect"

How will you shift weight backwards on Mercedes W01's tiny rear end. The smallest in the pit lane?

"Shifting weight also demands a shift in aero balance, for Mercedes this means more rear downforce. this cannot come purely from more rear wing angle as the drag that produces will slow straight line speeds"

Which is how they are trying to correct their problem. Slow straightline speeds anyone?

The defence rests