Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[thestig84]

Why?
I think they can, but if they do, they lose the benefit of it.
In the same way, you wont see redbull without theirs now.

They cant remove it. Like I said above artin Whitmarsh said so when they ran it at Monaco.

Also you say we wont see redbull without theirs....err we just saw them without it in Hungary! Ferrari also took it off...why didnt Mclaren??? because it is integral to the 25.

You're back tracking here, then why did you disagree with me, if you believe it can be physically removed as well?

Err Im only back tracking if you are being sarcastic!?!
Anything that is on the car can be physically removed, Mclaren build the car, so no doubt can remove any component if needed. I never thought the F-duct was some sort of mountain or other such immoveable object?! I didnt think it sat hovering in Woking or the trucks and they built the car up around it!!!

If you mean holes in chassis etc I was never getting at that. Im sure if it was removed they could blank up any holes.

The quote from MW (he used the word integral on bbc) is exactly where I stand on it. "It is a standard part of our car. We don't have a non F-duct variety to fit in any case"

In the same way, you wont see redbull without theirs now.

You looked at Hungary pics yet?

[ringo]

You responded to my post as if you disagreed with what the F duct being removable.

I think they can, but if they do, they lose the benefit of it.
In the same way, you wont see redbull without theirs now.

There is nothing wrong with what i said. I can be physically removed yes?
Whitmarsch wont do it, becuase it's integral to the performance of the car.

I was wondering why you said it can't be removed. Can't means physically not able. You should have said, it may not. May sounds more like a choice than can't.

Anyway, forget about the pedantics.

Redbull did not uses it in hungary, so did ferrari as well. They aren't desperate for speed on a tight circuit, but i don't see them leaving it off on any other track besides singapore.

[Pup]

McLaren haven't developed a 'mature' wing for the 25 without the F-Duct installed. All the other teams on the grid had the winter developing non F-duct rear wings, and then had too start a new development path with a blown wing.

The reason why they probably haven't bothered with developing a non F-Duct wing is the few, slow circuits on the calendar - (Monaco and Hungary) where is would be required.

I think this ignores the fact that McLaren first ran a version of their blown wing at Monaco last year. If you remember from the early discussion of blown wings, they can be used unstalled to add downforce. My guess is rather that McLaren simply uses a different version of the wing for added downforce on the twisty circuits, with the drivers never bothering to switch on the stall.

Why don't others do this? Probably for the very reasons you mention - there are only a few tracks like that and developing a separate wing wouldn't have been a good use of their resources, when they probably already had good high-downforce wings designed and built. McLaren, on the other hand, had the time and experience from last season to develop the wing for these circuits.

[segedunum]

I was wondering why you said it can't be removed. Can't means physically not able. You should have said, it may not. May sounds more like a choice than can't.

I'm afraid splitting hairs over the meaning of the word 'cannot' in this context isn't going to get you anywhere. It clearly meant that the wing cannot be removed because the F-duct system is an integral and designed-in part of the car. McLaren have not take it off at any race circuit this season, ergo they cannot.

[marcush.]

maybe they have nothing better to mount to the car ?

[siskue2005]

will you guys stop with this CAN REMOVE, CANT REMOVE BS
and discuss tech issues of MP4-25

[PlatinumZealot]

They won't take it off. NEXT.

[volarchico]

You're all so bored with the three week summer break that we're arguing over the word "can't"?

[segedunum]

If you happen to have an Autosport subscription kicking around Gary Anderson pours quite a bit of scorn on the direction McLaren are going in and the speed gains they expected:

http://www.autosport.com/features/article.php/id/2980

"There was talk that McLaren was expecting to get something like seven-tenths of a second a lap out of the diffuser, but to talk about that kind of increase is akin to Zimbabwean inflation! You just can't find that kind of gain – just look at the comparison of last year's lap times to this year's. To change an exhaust and expect that kind of gain is too optimistic."

Pretty harsh words. I think he is intimating that they are viewing this wrong as an exhaust driven diffuser, and overloading their diffuser in the process, and not looking at the pressure differences they can create around the rear of the car to make their diffuser more efficient.

[kalinka]

I agree that seven tenths is too optimistic, but I think it's not that far off the real target. Just look at how much Ferrari gained after introducing it. No, I can't tell you exactly how much is it, but my estimate would be around half a second, maybe 0,6 sec. I hope that the issue is only that McLaren were introducing it a bit later than we espected, and they didn't get it right as fast as others. We can consider too, that they are a little bit faster at any development than any other team, so I'm sure they didn't focus only at EBD in the summer break. I was thinking at some point even that that fast development is a trouble for them, because they are especting for every new bit to work "out of the box". Maybe too much confidence is a problem for them now.
I'm sure they can do it properly, the question is "only" if that's fast enough to win the title(s)?

[Mandrake]

I agree that seven tenths is too optimistic, but I think it's not that far off the real target. Just look at how much Ferrari gained after introducing it. No, I can't tell you exactly how much is it, but my estimate would be around half a second, maybe 0,6 sec.

I still don't see Ferrari gaining 0.5 secs from that new EBD.... They were strong before and just had THE perfect track for their car in Germany. One race later in Hungary they were miles away from the RedBulls again. While it may certainly be an improvement I doubt it's gonna be more than 0.2 secs a lap.

[Just_a_fan]

If you happen to have an Autosport subscription kicking around Gary Anderson pours quite a bit of scorn on the direction McLaren are going in and the speed gains they expected

Always funny to see Anderson saying others don't know what they're doing. In his career he designed how many championship-winning F1 cars...?

To me, he always comes across as slightly bitter when discussing others work.

[kalinka]

I agree that seven tenths is too optimistic, but I think it's not that far off the real target. Just look at how much Ferrari gained after introducing it. No, I can't tell you exactly how much is it, but my estimate would be around half a second, maybe 0,6 sec.

I still don't see Ferrari gaining 0.5 secs from that new EBD.... They were strong before and just had THE perfect track for their car in Germany. One race later in Hungary they were miles away from the RedBulls again. While it may certainly be an improvement I doubt it's gonna be more than 0.2 secs a lap.

I just prey for your thougths to be true That would mean we are not that far off of Ferrari

[segedunum]

Always funny to see Anderson saying others don't know what they're doing. In his career he designed how many championship-winning F1 cars...?

He worked with Gordon Murray on winning Brabhams and his Jordans in the 90s weren't exactly slouches. He got pretty much the best out of that team with the resources available. He's not without pedigree, and his cars have won everwhere he's been bar Jaguar but I doubt anyone could have saved that.

Whatever though, it doesn't discredit what he said in that article.

To me, he always comes across as slightly bitter when discussing others work.

Well he would to the people he's criticising.

[bar555]

Could someone please mail me a nice shoot of the MP4/25 rear end - diffuser at Turkish GP I have searched enough for a good picture but with no result so far and i do not want to waste precious time searching more .

THANKS in advance