Impact of unlimited KERS on chassis design?

[timbo]

simply have the FIA decide on what is or is not TC or ABS

I fail to see how "simply" fits in that sentence.
IMO if you produce unlimited KERS it is not simple at all.

OTOH, I'm not believing that all-out KERS development in F1 would provide anything useful for road cars. Completely different universes.

[WhiteBlue]

simply have the FIA decide on what is or is not TC or ABS

I'm not believing that all-out KERS development in F1 would provide anything useful for road cars. Completely different universes.

That opinion has been voiced before but the facts so far do not support it. Williams kinetic energy storage was initially developed for F1 and is now used in other automotive apps. If F1 manages to develop extremely light weight and efficient KERS components they can ultimately find use in other automotive apps as well.

[SiLo]

I think Turbo's are the way to go, not KERS. There should be some detriment to the gain in HP and acceleration/top speed. Like the engine blowing up.

[l4mbch0ps]

I think Turbo's are the way to go, not KERS. There should be some detriment to the gain in HP and acceleration/top speed. Like the engine blowing up.

That's a false dichotomy though. It's not turbos or KERS - realistically, it's probably turbos and KERS. The detriment to running KERS is weight/packaging.

Regardless though - this thread unfortunately got sidetracked like so many others.

I think that (getting back to the original topic) if unlimited KERS were allowed, we would inevitably see all wheel KERS, and perhaps even inboard braking/recovery systems aswell. Certainly the methods and technology behind regenerative braking are in their infancy - and perhaps F1 could aid in their acceleration.

One wonders about the weight balance issues aswell. I can expect some shifts in driver position, wheelbase etc. as all the teams jockey for the best combination of packaging and weight balance. We saw already how Ferrari and Mclaren suffered from their weight distribution woes last season - perhaps that's more of what we would see in the first few years of the implementation of the rules.

[timbo]

Williams kinetic energy storage was initially developed for F1 and is now used in other automotive apps.

I know only of Porsche 911GT3R. Anything else?
You won't argue that 911GT3R is indicative of general market, wouldn't you?

[autogyro]

Williams kinetic energy storage was initially developed for F1 and is now used in other automotive apps.

I know only of Porsche 911GT3R. Anything else?
You won't argue that 911GT3R is indicative of general market, wouldn't you?

The 'general market' in EVs and hybrid vehicles is being prevented from development by vested interest in fossil fuels and ic production.
EVs would be in production at sensible prices and in use with decent range and recharge facilities if this was not the case.
Opening up KERS development in F1 is not just to develop the technology. It has to be done to justify F1 in the alternate energy revolution that is happening under our noses.

[timbo]

The 'general market' in EVs and hybrid vehicles is being prevented from development by vested interest in fossil fuels and ic production.
EVs would be in production at sensible prices and in use with decent range and recharge facilities if this was not the case.

OK
So, batteries production and utilization and electrical energy production is all green fine and dandy?
You know, I have a cellphone and the battery is dead after a year. I would imagine EVs owners would be VERY happy to know that a big part of its cost has planned obsolescence of 3-4 years max in best possible conditions.

But this is off-topic.

I agree that F1 has to promote green technology. But KERS is just a small part of it. And I still don't believe that something new can come from F1. It surely can pick up something new and probably promote it OTOH. However, is there a single general production car with inerter?

[WhiteBlue]

I don't see how the question of F1 KERS applicability on road cars has a relevance on this thread. People are religious in their believes regarding the role of KERS in F1 and have discussed all of those aspects in many threads.

I want to specifically look at the impact of AWKERS on chassis design from a technical, economic and sporting point of view. I believe that FiA and FOTA are in agreement to introduce unrestricted KERS in 2013 and I hope they will make it all wheel capable.

I don't see an antagonism in AWKERS and more efficient, downsized turbo engines. I think that all technologies that improve fuel efficiency will be in great demand by the 2013 formula. That includes variable valves, variable turbo geometries, high pressure stratified direct spray guided fuel injection, throttle less engine control, movable aero devices, flexible aero and anything that will help to significantly reduce fuel consumption to 90L per race in some years.

One thing I have been wondering about since Williams introduced their kinetic energy storage is the applicability of the design principles on electric motors and generators. If motor/generators can be mainly made from carbon fibre with less magnets and copper windings the weight to power ratio might decrease.

[xpensive]

It is easy to show that the amount of kinetic energy dissipated by the brakes of an F1 car is in the range of 5 000 to 10 000 kJ per lap, while to make the most of recovery, all-wheel KERS becomes a necessity. However, all this is for nothing if there's no sensible way of storing this energy, already a 400 kJ battery in 2009 was reported to cost an arm and a leg and didn't last for long either. Charging is another issue, storing 10 000 kJ in 20 seconds equals the power of 500 kW!

This is still the paramount problem with EVs, storage, lifespan and charging-time of the batteries.

[timbo]

I want to specifically look at the impact of AWKERS on chassis design from a technical, economic and sporting point of view. I believe that FiA and FOTA are in agreement to introduce unrestricted KERS in 2013 and I hope they will make it all wheel capable.

1) Forget of "driver aid" limitation. With a bit of tweaking, AWKERS can make ABS, TC and ESP in no time.
2) Energy-wise, what xpensive said. I may only add, that I would guess only around 1MJ capacity is realistic for F1 today, unless you want to turn it into truck racing series.

PS I believe thread must be in Engine/Transmission/Controls forum.

[WhiteBlue]

It is easy to show that the amount of kinetic energy dissipated by the brakes of an F1 car is in the range of 5 000 to 10 000 kJ per lap, while to make the most of recovery, all-wheel KERS becomes a necessity. However, all this is for nothing if there's no sensible way of storing this energy, already a 400 kJ battery in 2009 was reported to cost an arm and a leg and didn't last for long either. Charging is another issue, storing 10 000 kJ in 20 seconds equals the power of 500 kW! This is still the paramount problem with EVs, storage, lifespan and charging-time of the batteries.

Some of the high demands on storage are caused by regulation that want to use this for push to pass. Obviously that nonsense has to stop at some point and true dual torque systems must be regulated as Gilles Simon hinted at. I can also imagine that storage time can be expanded by using super capacitors for intermediate storage. To curb excessive throw away practices you can define a limited number of batteries per season no larger than the number of engines which would force batteries to last 2,000 - 3,000 km like engines. That would be a reasonable compromise.

I want to specifically look at the impact of AWKERS on chassis design from a technical, economic and sporting point of view. I believe that FiA and FOTA are in agreement to introduce unrestricted KERS in 2013 and I hope they will make it all wheel capable.

Forget of "driver aid" limitation. With a bit of tweaking, AWKERS can make ABS, TC and ESP in no time.

The SECU will stop the tweaking. No code access for teams. They would only have parametrizing access.

[timbo]

The SECU will stop the tweaking. No code access for teams. They would only have parametrizing access.

So it is limited KERS. And severely limited one.

[WhiteBlue]

The SECU will stop the tweaking. No code access for teams. They would only have parametrizing access.

So it is limited KERS. And severely limited one.

Aren't we nit picking a bit here? Every system needs certain defining limitations. My "unlimited" was based on the physical engineering properties. For sporting and economical purposes you can and should very well introduce limits like sales price limit, number of batteries used per season and access to source code for teams.

[timbo]

Aren't we nit picking a bit here? Every system needs certain defining limitations. My "unlimited" was based on the physical engineering properties. For sporting and economical purposes you can and should very well introduce limits like sales price limit, number of batteries used per season and access to source code for teams.

You can't really make "physically unlimited" KERS if you control it that way.
Electronics/algos are big part of it.
Basic functionality would be defined by what ECU allows.

[WhiteBlue]

Aren't we nit picking a bit here? Every system needs certain defining limitations. My "unlimited" was based on the physical engineering properties. For sporting and economical purposes you can and should very well introduce limits like sales price limit, number of batteries used per season and access to source code for teams.

You can't really make "physically unlimited" KERS if you control it that way.
Electronics/algos are big part of it.
Basic functionality would be defined by what ECU allows.

I would disagree with that view. So far MES have integrated every legitimate aspect of controlling a racing engine and a race car into their code. At least I am not aware of any criticism of the teams since the system's initial birthing pains have been overcome. They can be trusted to provide all needed functionality for every physical system that meets the regulations. What they certainly will not do is give code access to teams and violate the FiA regulations for the SECU.