Need pics of F1 uprights

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newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Need pics of F1 uprights

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Hey, I'm working on a 1/4 rc F1.
I need pics of the front and rear uprights. I tried looking for some on google, but didn't find much. So would you happen to have any or know where I can find some?
Thanks!

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747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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RBR RB6 rear upright
hope it helps - good luck

Image
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

ESPImperium
ESPImperium
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Joined: 06 Apr 2008, 00:08
Location: Glasgow, Scotland

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Care to show pics of your model, even progress pics would be ince as well???

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Yes that helps, excellent pic!

After posting here I came across this
http://www.solidworkstutorials.com/en/w ... -f1-01.jpg
Its useful, but I could still use some more pics

Do you have any more?

Sorry about not posting progress pics
heres some
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Front (missing axle on right side)
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I plan starting out with a chain driven electric powertrain(specifically the Mamba Monster Brushless System), then maybe later on go nitro
The first two cubes are the batteries
The motor is on the right, and the ESC on the left
Image
Modeling was done in ZModeler
Needs work

Also I'm not that far into this project, I could use pointers.
Thanks for your help!

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747heavy
24
Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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wow 747heavy is master in finding pictures =D>

@newyorkkopter
Why you want to use a chain drive?
I thought normaly those cars use beld drive. Seems to be better in my opinion.
What kind of machines do you have?
I did a similar project when I was junger but I was limited on machines.
So I had to make compromises on the desing. I recoment you not to make compromises because of limited manufacturing.
I think you will at least need a stationary driller, a turning machine and welding gear or somebody who does welding.

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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WOW, nice find! Those are the kind of pics I was looking for. Thanks!

Mep, I want to use chain drive to start things off because of its simplicity.
This is my first project of this sort; I don't have experience machining parts.
So I'm going to try and use composites to make the suspension parts, wings, etc. and use readily availible parts if needed.
Your thoughts?

I admit I'm no expert, but I do want to learn.

A possible body design
Image
Image
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Can you say Lotus 79? Looks similar from underneath right?

Also the sidepods were done quickly using cubes, be gentle

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Mep, I want to use chain drive to start things off because of its simplicity.
This is my first project of this sort; I don't have experience machining parts.
So I'm going to try and use composites to make the suspension parts, wings, etc. and use readily availible parts if needed.
Your thoughts?

I admit I'm no expert, but I do want to learn.
The critical aspects for such a project are machining your parts and doing a good design (especially regarding suspension).

It's ok to use composites but you will need metal parts in any case.
Take the upright as example. I say it should be machined from metal (aluminium).
A composite one is a step to high for a beginner. You can also buy one but then you will start to become limited with your suspension design.
Don't make compromises with your suspension. Its very important for the performance of your car. I recommend to start with a general concept of the car and then design the suspension.

Find a way to get access to some machines. Like I already said you will at least need a stationary driller. A turning machine will also be required. A mill is not necessary because when you are very clever you can get similar parts with your turning machine.

When you say you want to use composites then I guess you want to build a composite chassis as well. It's ok to do so important is to get it stiff.
Some other things you should also keep in mind.
These composite stuff doesn’t like heat so around some parts you will need other solutions.
A monocoque is more or less a closed tube. You can have trouble to mount parts into it. Especially because you build a small car. Therefore it might be necessary to make big holes into. Keeping the thing stiff but still enable you to get access to parts in it can become a task.
A composite chassis on the front and something like a tube frame in the rear should be good.

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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aaah those cars look pretty good.
Really sad that they stoped to be in buisines.
Looks like they could outperform these one's:
http://www.fg-modellsport.de/FG-Interna ... la1_e.html

(I don't reallly like how they designed the car)

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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I was thinking about it, and I think belt drive might be better in that it may be easier to do and more inline with rc; so thanks for that

Regarding the suspension, are there specifics with a F1 style suspension that I should take into account?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive ... ion_design
http://www.automotivearticles.com/Suspe ... ions.shtml
http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/book_aoe/aoe_02.pdf
Would these sources be useful to consider for suspension design?

Regarding the chassis, I do plan on a composite monocoque; probably fiberglass to start things off. Then later on maybe carbon fiber. You make a good point, keeping the thing stiff may conflict with part accessibility; perhaps I could vaccum bag it
Another thing, how can I know if the monocoque is stiff enough?

Regarding the machines, how much would it cost for some decent ones?

Thanks guys for your input!

That 1st pic of that Raco; WOW! Those tires!

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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I was thinking about it, and I think belt drive might be better in that it may be easier to do and more inline with rc; so thanks for that
Good choice. There are some advantages for belt drive but I forgot them. #-o
Maybe someone else can tell, otherwise I must check some of my files at the weekend.

I think a double wishbone suspension is good for you.
Another thing, how can I know if the monocoque is stiff enough?
hahahah there you go....
Thats a very good point for using a metal frame. It's easier to calculate.
You can either do a FEM simulation or If you don't have the software or know how to use it you can even make some calculations by hand.
Yea even in the world of FEM own calculations are still good and gives you a much better idea about what you are actually doing.

A composite chassis is not so easy to calculate.
Anisotropic material properties, different layers, core and so on....
Honestly I don't know myself how to get a good calculation for it.
By the way a carbon chassis is not always lighter than a tube frame.
You can see formula student teams that get a heavier car when switching form steel to carbon.

Regarding demanded stiffness:
Your front axle should only twist a defined percentage to your rear one.
Also your chassis should not flex very much under bending and should not start to oscilate
How much flexibility you want to allow is hard to say.
Maybe you should simply test it out.
Build something like a dummy chassis and try to twist and bend it.
Possible the most straight forward way for it.

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Build something like a dummy chassis and try to twist and bend it.
Possible the most straight forward way for it.
yea, I think I'll go with that
I shouldn't be able to noticably bend the chassis much or at all right?

-Thanks

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Hi if you really want to go and built a composite monocoque you can find some
informations here. And they sell most of what you will need.
download the handbook and the catalouge it´s good and free

http://www.r-g.de/en/

They used to offer a free download for a calculation software (LamiCens) for simple composite structures, it´s quite good.
But maybe the software is only in German, you will need to check it out, can´t remember of the top of my head.

Your monocoque could look like this maybe:

http://www.rc-news.de/03/2009/d-drive-s ... e-chassis/

You should use a core material (honeycomb or foam) and 2-3 layers carbon/fibre glass at each side. I don´t think, that making it stiff enough is a big problem in your application.

But you should keep the termal stress (temperature) around the engine exhaust in mind.
So, maybe built it like and F1 monocoque and use a rear subframe for the engine, gearbox and suspension.
Keep in mind, that a F1 car, ist not the best example for good suspension, especially at the front. A F1 car is dominated so much by downforce and aero considerations, that the suspension design just follows. A F1 car is nearly ridgid at the front, so trying to copy a F1 front layout is maybe not the best move, in terms of mechanical grip.

What do you want to do? Should your car look like a real F1 car (proper scale model) or do you want it to drive well, and look close to an current F1 car?

What tyres are you going to use? Foam tyres, foam filled rubber tyres o air filled rubber tyres?
Last edited by 747heavy on 19 Aug 2010, 23:19, edited 5 times in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

newyorkkopter
newyorkkopter
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Joined: 16 Aug 2010, 23:45

Re: Need pics of F1 uprights

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Wow thanks how did you find that???
I was looking through the handbook and yea it could be useful; specifically the part about calculating the loads on pg 84

Regarding honeycomb, how would I use it?
I don’t think its like foam in that I can mix part A with B and wait for it expand and fill in the space.
So does it come in sheets that I would have to assemble and put fabric on top?
Or does it come as a block or something that I would carve it into the shape of the monocoque, and then apply CF or glass over it?

Regarding the tires, I might have to make them myself; would solid rubber work?
If not then probably rubber tires with foam inserts.

Regarding the car, I want it to have downforce, but I also want it to be drivable on regular roads. Would softer springs be adequate? It might sound like quick fix but thing is the F1 layout's look is at another level; the pushrods, bell cranks, I'd really like to keep it but what are your thoughts on this?

Thanks for the info
Good stuff