Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
User avatar
JohnsonsEvilTwin
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

xpensive wrote:Perhaps if you remove those three-pointed-star contacts, you could start to appreciate somebody else's view? :wink:
So then Xpensive, one cannot like somthing without being objective.
Just because I disagree with you xpensive doesnt mean Im a fanboy incapable of balanced discussion.

I pointed the finger at Mercedes GP too, but in a constructive way.
Haug knows what the problems are better than you or I, Brawn even more so. They are on the case, and they have fired shots across the bow of all those working at the team. If your not pulling your weight your out.

You are saying Haug is talking out his rectum, just by him saying " we are going to change things". How is that anything but unfair I ask?

Would you like him to say everything is fine?
We like where we are at, and we want to continue thus?

Or do you want a man to take stock of the situation with a measured and logical approach?

Of course the latter, which has nothing at all to do with fanaticism and everything to do with straightforward logic.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

to me the situation is as follows:
Mercedes bought into a team that bagged the drivers and constructors titles in 2009 in clear anticipation of a competitive team.
Brawn and Fry had to paint a picture to Mercedes to make sure they bagged that deal,surely in the know they had missed the boat for 2010 when deciding to concentrate on securing the 2009 titles at all cost....that team was considerably smaller than the other top teams already so it got more and more difficult to keep
the pace of development with their former approach,so of course they had to take shortcuts after bagging the title to get their new car ready.
now starting the new car being in a that position and with a retrograde scheduling as is the only possibility to get things ready in time it is very obvious that you have to severely cut down on your time for basic research and calculations for the general layout and when it comes to introducing new ideas .they had simply not enough time to decide on which of the REDBULL features would need to be incorporated
(v-keelwas the one that made it )and as this is a very obvious feature it makes you wonder if there was much time spend on analysing the concept of RedBull ...so a classic example of not appreciating or understanding others concept strengths.
On the other hand they surely put a lot of effort into that rollover structure ,whereas other areas of the car look very unsophisticated compared to McLaren and RB..For me a classic of directing efforts in wrong directions instead of concentration on main issues/objectives.

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

The following is my simple logic JET;

- Schumacher says the car is "is a survivor from 2009 and is compromising him".
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85983
- Haug listens and says there will be a change in staff if progress is not made.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85850
- The design-work on the 2011 car is already in process since considerable time.
- Changing horses mid-stream doesn't make sense anywhere.
- Conclusively, MGP is stuck with what they have in the design department.

If the current design-team can tailor the 2011 car to suit MS and become a winner, then fine, but I doubt it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

my fears regarding the design team are a bit in line with the swede,I have to admit.Have they received more than knucle ripping yet ? We do not know.
what we do know is it took Mercedes guys quite aa long time to realise they were levering on the wrong side of the box ,insisting they could bridge the gap an produce a winner in this season but in reality nothing limke that happened(suggesting they modified the wrong parts or the box just has no potential for improvement)
On the other side,James Key went to Sauber and instantly there was a rise of form to be seen ,interestingly as Sauber rose FI started to struggle...so maybe it´s just coincidence but it cold just as well be you need one key(!) element to progress significantly.
for williams it was similar ,but without new tech people ...but fresh input from the driver side ? so these two examples suggest that new approach and rethinking of proceedures enable you to make big steps even if you are stuck with a less than optimum
base .

audifan
audifan
0
Joined: 04 Dec 2009, 23:13

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

it seems to me that when mercedes bought this team they knew that the team had been dramatically cut down in size from it's previous incarnation ; short of increasing the budget to match the 'big' teams it would therefore seem unrealistic to be able to compete with them

norbert talks like someone with a background in journalism / PR

segedunum
segedunum
0
Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

There's far too much three pointed wishful thinking and a serious painting over of issues in this thread for my liking that gets us off the main issue - what it will take for Mercedes to win. You'd think people didn't want Mercedes to win and just wanted to cover certain backsides. The reason why Norbert is saying they might 'change things' is because he knows they will probably have to, or he at least suspects it. However, now that the 2011 car is already underway they are stuck with it so saying that now doesn't make much sense.

They might be able to get Schumacher winning in 2011, but with three other wealthy teams all in much better starting positions than Mercedes and with extremely competent people with experience, I doubt it. Mercedes have went steadily backwards this season and the signs are they they they are a technical group who shoot in the dark, just as they've done in previous seasons.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

audifan wrote:it seems to me that when mercedes bought this team they knew that the team had been dramatically cut down in size from it's previous incarnation ; short of increasing the budget to match the 'big' teams it would therefore seem unrealistic to be able to compete with them

norbert talks like someone with a background in journalism / PR

hehe .so what do YOU think he´s coming from??

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Haug

the guy was deputy editor in chief at Auto Motor und Sport the big german Car Mag before joining Daimler in 1988...I just found out his career started no more than 20km away from my home.. :roll:

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

marcush. wrote:
audifan wrote:it seems to me that when mercedes bought this team they knew that the team had been dramatically cut down in size from it's previous incarnation ; short of increasing the budget to match the 'big' teams it would therefore seem unrealistic to be able to compete with them

norbert talks like someone with a background in journalism / PR

I just found out his career started no more than 20km away from my home.. :roll:
Aren't you lucky :lol: :lol: :lol:

He's not the only person to come from journalism. Windsor also started as a reporter, and look what he got up to!

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

Mein Gott! A bleeding journo, self-made at that! This xplains a whole heap of things!

Among them financing the one-off 3.4 pushrod-V8 for Indianapolis, as well as doing a "BMW" with Brawn, which surely will end the same way, while not to mention the inspiration he must have given one Peter Windsor!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norbert_Haug

But how could this possibly happen in Germany marcush?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
JohnsonsEvilTwin
0
Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

Its fairly common knowledge that Haug was a hack. He wasnt there because he could wax lyrical in German either, he was there for his undisputed knowledge of motorsport.
Benz wanted him in 88, and since then name me one motorsport boss that has won what he has?

DTM titles, F1 championships powering Mclaren and Indycar titles powering various cars, GT1 championships. That isnt bad going is it, so why would Haug with a history of success now suddenly make a poor call? He certainly isnt infallible, but he is answering questions put to him by journo's. Ironic right?

Its not a daimler sanctioned PR spiel, although I would agree that hymn sheets are there for all to follow. This isnt a problem thats exclusively Mercedes now is it?
Witness Ferrari in germany, Red Bull in turkey and McLaren at the same race. They all have their PR machines.

A project of this magnitude is a big undertaking. It will take time and has started very gingerly indeed. Maybe Mercedes need a commodity called time before we can judge them accurately?

And yea Segedunum and Xpensive will both slaughter me for this, but what effect will the resource restriction have on the top 3 teams ?
More could have been done.
David Purley

segedunum
segedunum
0
Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:And yea Segedunum and Xpensive will both slaughter me for this, but what effect will the resource restriction have on the top 3 teams ?
None. I described why a while back and it was painted over.

The budgets of the top three teams won't change even if they do reduce staff, that's the main point. All that will happen is they'll fire a few administrators, PR people, and physios or they will 'transfer' them to parent organisations and 'partner' companies and they'll do virtually the same work from there. There are other ways and means - Adrian Newey doesn't even work for Red Bull Racing he works for Red Bull Technology, for example. Then there is the whole area of consulting.........

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

The problem with having a technical dilettante in charge of your motorsports efforts, which is a rather technical business to its nature actually, is that he or she has a very limited ability to judge what makes sense or not.
A monstrous 3.5 flat-twelve for Group C, or a one-off 3.4 pushrod V-8 in order to win Indianapolis once, while pissing of the entire Indy-community making them call you a cheat?

Now that I know where Haug is coming from, I realize that he never was able to hold a candle at Ron Dennis or Mario Ilien, simply having to take their word at face value. My, they must have laughed their asses off behind his back.

And now he tries to do a "Mario", but you know what, he will indeed. Believe me.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

xpensive wrote:Sit back an read my post again JET, I wrote that if Mercedes had wanted to change their design-team for whatever reason, they should obviously have done it before they began developing the 2011 car. That's all.
Agreed..To help with the new car they would alread need to be in place. Some asked about lead time..It would seem to be about 4 or 6 months for most teams.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

audifan
audifan
0
Joined: 04 Dec 2009, 23:13

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

norbert talks like someone with a background in journalism / PR[/quote]

sorry , everyone here has such a good command of english that I tend to forget that it is not their native language and make ironic statements as here...I presumed that nobody would really think I was unaware of norbert's real function at the team

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mercedes GP

Post

xpensive wrote:The problem with having a technical dilettante in charge of your motorsports efforts, which is a rather technical business to its nature actually, is that he or she has a very limited ability to judge what makes sense or not.
A monstrous 3.5 flat-twelve for Group C, or a one-off 3.4 pushrod V-8 in order to win Indianapolis once, while pissing of the entire Indy-community making them call you a cheat?

Now that I know where Haug is coming from, I realize that he never was able to hold a candle at Ron Dennis or Mario Ilien, simply having to take their word at face value. My, they must have laughed their asses off behind his back.

And now he tries to do a "Mario", but you know what, he will indeed. Believe me.
Just a question. If Haug was to step down, have you any suggestion as to who would take over? :lol: :lol: :lol: