Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

I'm curious as the the best technical idea each of you has thought up. If you don't want to disclose you're best that's understandable, but it would be a neat read seeing everyones ideas.

The idea should be one that can be incorporated into the current design and rules of F1 cars, obviously Manchild's nose cone idea is the inspiration for it.

Here's mine, posted on the always fun Halfbakery.com, which I suggest everyone go for a read in the engine department. Brilliant ideas there.

Here's mine.
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Humpback ... 1105297194
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

bazanaius
bazanaius
0
Joined: 08 Feb 2008, 17:16

Re: You're best F1 conept within the current rules.

Post

Good Idea Giblet! I don't want to split hairs, but the pointy look for aero is mostly sonic+. At low speeds, where compressibility effects are negligable (for example in cars) you tend to get rounded leading edges on the wings, and no sweep.

I'm not sure how the bumpyness (word?) does anything different to increasing the wing thickness at the leading edge, effectivly rounding it off? If you know, could you explain more?

B

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

If you look at the pectoral fin of a Humpback, the bumps are on the leading surface. This apparently according to an article I read in Popsci, helps to remove the chaos that exists in the water at the leading edge of the fin, increasing stall significantly, allowing the whales to spiral up nearly vertically, creating a column of bubbles out of their blowholes that coralles plankton and schools of fish. The bumps smooth out the water so it is static as it passes over and under the airfoil.

While the effect would be less on air then it is on water, these round bumps on wings leading edges could increase their effenciency at lower speeds.

If the air is hitting the aero surfaces on the wing is already being 'smoothed out', this could also help the wings act more effectively during bumps and in corners. The air would presumably be hitting the wings more consistantly all the time, and this is where engineers in the past have acehived the same thing with mass dampers and active suspension.

I think engineers should look to nature once in a while for inspiration as well.

What about the trialngular 'teeth' running down the tunas back and underside rear. Seems like a notched surface, not dissimilar to current starcase bargeboard design. The Tuna is one of the most effecient designs in nature.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

bazanaius
bazanaius
0
Joined: 08 Feb 2008, 17:16

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

Do you have any diagrams? I'm struggling to understand what you mean.

having googled this picture - <img>http://www.specieslist.com/images/exter ... r.jpg</img>

do you mean the bumps on its nose kind of bumps, or the leading edge shape (ie not bumps on the surface, but the actual leading edge is not smooth)?

When you say 'increasing stall' do you mean delaying it, or increasing its likelihood?

And what do you mean by 'static' water passing over the aerofoil?

Hope you don't think I'm being rude, I just think this is a cool idea and I'd like to understand further :-)

cheers,
B

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

About the idea posted by Giblet in half-bakery, we had a thread on that. There are many planes that incorporate some kind of bumps for "flow smoothing", the most extreme example I know is the Junker series of "corrugated" airplanes.

Wing of the only surviving J-1, there were more "extreme" ondulations later in the series
Image

About the serrated scales of tuna, we also had a talk on serrated shark skin. I found this:

Serrated gurney flap on the trailing edge of a Ferrari front wing
Image

While I searched for it, I found a lot of my own half-baked ideas and some ideas by others. Here is a resumé... don't laugh too hard: if you judge them by the answers received in the threads, most of them have been proven unpractical or totally unworkable. ;)

1. Air ioninzing wing
Image

Tomislav proposal to diminish drag in wheels, it needs another "voltage grid" on the rim, as pointed by Syguy
Image

2. Shkval torpedo style nose,to blow air "backwards" over the car surface
Image

Shkval torpedo working underwater, creating layer of bubbles for drag reduction
Image

3. Wings with "layered tips": see this eagle spreading primaries to decrease drag and increase lift
Image

Swiss aircraft that uses the principle
Image

4. Shark skin (serrated edges and tuna scales fall in this category, I think. The captions are mine, I have no proof to support that it works like I imagine
Image

5. Blown flaps, a pump blows air through the trailing edge of the wing. In this case is the exhaust from the jet engine
Image

6. Naca duct to feed air over rear wing, by Manchild
Image

7. Differential honeycombing (you vary the size of cells along the structure) of dragonfly wing. I concede it's not easy to achieve with current carbon fiber and aluminium honeycomb, but...
Image

8. Downforce "killer", under the tray, to avoid the problem of flying cars (this is a safety device)
Image

"NASCAR flap" with exactly the same function: to kill lift when the car flies in the air
Image
Ciro

Conceptual
Conceptual
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

Ciro,

Don't the layered tips of the eagles wing just simulate the effect of the endplates? It's amazing that someone built that airplane, but I have alot of respect for R&D!

Chris

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

Going back to Ciro's pictures about wing tip modifications, please examine number 3. Now visualize that the bottom of the Eagle's wing is high pressure, and the top low pressure, the air on the bottom wishes to migrate to the lower pressure area, the top. Remember you are looking at a head-on shot. The air from the bottom then tries to move around the tip, and flow to the top. This results in a vortex flowing back from the tip of the wing. An endplate just puts up a barrier to this flow. Endtip feathers or winglets capture the energy, as well as stopping the migration of the air.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

OK, here's my favorite theory, which I have mentioned in the past.It's about heat management in tires. In racing, you want the tire to reach maximum grip at a certain temperature. If the tire cools, traction drops. In a typical racing scenario (let's pick Monza's Parabolica as a great example), the racing car screams down the back stretch, and during this time, the tires are cooling. Now, at the instant that the car has to turn in, the tires are below their optimal temperature. As soon as the tires have to work hard, heat returns. But there is a small delay in fractions of a second, before the tires reach their magic temperature. So the driver does not have maximum grip until he is already negotiating the corner. Now, how can we get the tires up to optimal temperature BEFORE turning in? From the brakes. If somehow the heat energy from the brake disk could be quickly transferred to the tire tread, performance entering the corner should improve.
Magic heat pipes inside the tire? I don't know, the solutions seem impossible.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

User avatar
dave kumar
12
Joined: 26 Feb 2008, 14:16
Location: UK

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

spooky - just read this in new scientist
It might seem counterintuitive to reduce drag by wrinkling the surface of a craft, but nature provides a precedent. "Dolphins induce their skin to wrinkle, so water won’t stick to them," says Lagoudas.

After calculating that this approach would work, his team tested designs for an "active skin" that shifts to the shape of an ideal surface wave.

One design uses "legs" just beneath the skin that lengthen under the influence of an electric field, bending the skin upwards. By controlling the field around each piezoceramic leg, Lagoudas’ team can deform the skin into corrugations of right wavelength and amplitude to cut down drag.

The corrugations can be at most 30 micrometres high. "We measured flow velocities very close to the skin and derived the skin friction drag – we have seen reductions as much as 50%," says researcher Othon Rediniotis.

Lagoudas says the shape-shifting skin approach would work best as cladding for submarines. "It would be feasible to use this on aircraft but more challenging," he explains. "The velocities are higher and so the travelling waves must be higher in frequency."
newscientist shapeshifting-skin
Formerly known as senna-toleman

Conceptual
Conceptual
0
Joined: 15 Nov 2007, 03:33

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

senna-toleman wrote:spooky - just read this in new scientist
It might seem counterintuitive to reduce drag by wrinkling the surface of a craft, but nature provides a precedent. "Dolphins induce their skin to wrinkle, so water won’t stick to them," says Lagoudas.

After calculating that this approach would work, his team tested designs for an "active skin" that shifts to the shape of an ideal surface wave.

One design uses "legs" just beneath the skin that lengthen under the influence of an electric field, bending the skin upwards. By controlling the field around each piezoceramic leg, Lagoudas’ team can deform the skin into corrugations of right wavelength and amplitude to cut down drag.

The corrugations can be at most 30 micrometres high. "We measured flow velocities very close to the skin and derived the skin friction drag – we have seen reductions as much as 50%," says researcher Othon Rediniotis.

Lagoudas says the shape-shifting skin approach would work best as cladding for submarines. "It would be feasible to use this on aircraft but more challenging," he explains. "The velocities are higher and so the travelling waves must be higher in frequency."
newscientist shapeshifting-skin

That would OWN. Glue the "legs" onto the bodywork, layer with a thin sheet of plastic, and then spray bedliner over it at .5mm thickness.

I think it could work!

LoL!

Chris

Giblet
Giblet
5
Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

B, I'm talking about the bumps along the leading edge of the fins, not the bumps onm the back and body and such. Appreciate someone trying to understand what I feel might be a great idea.

I mistyped when I said increasing stall, I meant increasing stall angle.

The greater the stall angle attainable, the more effecient the wing is, and is able to produce downforce at lower speeds then wings with lesser stall angle.

The marine biologists and CFD guys were at first confused as to how the whales were able to use their pectoral fins to swim up almost vertically while releasing massive amounts of air. The angles of climb were beyond what should be attainable with standard smooth fins that dolphins sharks and other whales posses.

Traditionally, modern fighter jets are impossible to fly without a computer translating the fighters requests for control. The aerodynamics of modern jets are more akin to a dart being thrown backwards with a computer keeping it pointed that way, as it alsways on the edge of changing direction. These knife edge wings offer the air the option of going either above or below the wings, but some air takes a moment to 'decide', and needs to be foced over and under, creating some chaos at the leading edge.

If there are round bumps staggered on the leading edge, the air has the option to go around the bumps in 360 degrees of freedom, so when the air hits the broad wing surfaces, it has already been conditioned, and is easier to control.
Here is a link about the bumps (tubercles!!!)

*From the article*

The group built two model humpback whale flippers, one with a smooth leading edge and one with a wavy edge approximating the usual spacing of tubercles. They tested the scaled-down fins in the Naval Academy's wind tunnel by matching the Reynolds number of a swimming humpback, around 500,000, and measured the steady lift and drag forces on the fins at a variety of angles to the oncoming flow, ranging from –2° to 20°.

The smooth-edged flipper behaved much like a standard airplane wing, although its shape gave it a few advantages over a normal wing. As the angle of attack increased, the lift force increased until the flipper stalled out at around 12° when the lift dropped and the drag increased substantially. This performance is very similar to a standard wing, but the lift did not drop as much as the group expected, possibly because fins are tapered towards the tip. The taper might let different parts of the fin stall later than others, leading to a more gradual drop off in the lift force.

"The really impressive results, however, came from the flipper with tubercles. The fin did not stall until it reached an angle of 16° and produced up to 6% higher lift and as much as 32% lower drag than the smooth fin. Over nearly the entire operating range of angles the bumpy flipper performed better.

Summarizing the performance of the flipper models as an aerodynamic efficiency – the ratio of lift force to drag force – they found that tubercles increased efficiency at almost any angle, and particularly augmented the efficiency at high angles. Maximum efficiency jumped from 22.5 to 23.5.

The group hypothesizes that the tubercles function like vortex generators, speeding up the flow in the gaps between bumps. The energized flow stays attached to the flipper better, helping to prevent stall at high angles and increasing the lift force. These increased forces probably contribute to humpbacks' surprising agility."
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

User avatar
Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

I think this is similar enough to the idea you propose, taken from "A whale of a tale".

WhaleCorps turbine blade
Image

Ginsu said in that thread that there was a third, previous thread on the subject, which I could not find (he did not provide a link to it). DaveKillens mentioned vortex generators, they all seem similar to a profane: eagles, sharks, tunas, whales, they all "taste like chicken" to me.

This is an image Dave provided that I think sums up the "principle" behind vortex generators. Maybe humpbacks humps (shouldn't they be called "humpfins"?) work in a similar way:

Image

I think most of them (VGs) are used to avoid stall at extreme angles of attack, as Giblet mentions. In the earlier thread some people said they increase drag when the angle of attack is low.

Finally, on the subject of bionics, I smiled with these pictures: http://www.freakingnews.com/Insect-Airc ... --1133.asp :)

Image
Ciro

Brother
Brother
0
Joined: 04 Jul 2010, 18:26

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

Ciro Pabón wrote:
7. Differential honeycombing (you vary the size of cells along the structure) of dragonfly wing. I concede it's not easy to achieve with current carbon fiber and aluminium honeycomb, but...
Image

A poor excuse to bump up a very interesting topic but I thought I would chuck my 2 pence in to say that most F1 teams already vary honeycomb dimensions within a single part.

If I have got the wrong end of the stick then I will stop talking and go back to being a quasi-stalker come lurker.

Bro.

Dukeage
Dukeage
0
Joined: 24 Jul 2007, 21:28

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

It's not aero, chassis or tyres, but while the rules outline the specification for engines, they don't clearly state you can only have one.

User avatar
SiLo
138
Joined: 25 Jul 2010, 19:09

Re: Your best F1 concept within the current rules.

Post

A small engine for each wheel then!
Felipe Baby!