Is Vettel overrated? What do you think

[ringo]

You're judging a rookie fighting for a championship in the final round?
And you use that to paint his career over?
Worst yet you compare a rookie to a champ like Alonso to show Alonso is the better overtaker. Alonso was never a master overtaker. There was never a racer like Hamilton when it comes to overtaking, not even Senna (we're afraid to say it but it's true).


Alonso is not the most exciting driver on the track. I like watching him drive, but he hasn't been getting much camera time since the past 3 years. His comments are more exciting than his driving nowadays.
Vettel is not the same as Hamilton. Vettel has had a far superior car than Hamilton ever had, and has had 4 years of experience now, with an ok, but not top tier teammate.
Support structure has nothing to do with it. Vettel is simply not as talented. I have looked at the last 2 years objectively for Vettel and can only say one thing that stands out. He's fast, very fast, but he's no "once in every 20 years" driver.
He has not mastered anything in his 4 years.

[SiLo]

Some very good points there Dave, but you need to remember that was Hamiltons first season in F1. The fact that he was even in contention for the WDC is impressive in itself.

Hamilton has matured lots since his first season, and has consistently scored points, podiums and wins etc. I am not a fanboy as such, there are plenty of drivers I like watching just as much as him, especially Webber beating Vettel, I always love watching that!

In regard to Alonso, I think he isn't as fast as he used to be, or as exciting any more, he just moans a lot nowadays and for his supposed speed advantages over Massa, still needs the team to hand him the win on a platter.

I think people have good reason to say that Hamilton is the best driver in F1 at the moment, because he delivers more than any other, more of the time. If you stuck him in a Red Bull you wouldn't see him at most grand prix, and he would probably have had just as many poles, if not more, that Vettel has this year.

[mrleisure]

His front wing seems to be flexing/moving around quite a lot just before he hits Button . Could this be the cause of the accident or do they normaly move around that much ?


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxNVoMXHz4[/youtube]

[RH1300S]

I don't think Vettel is overrated at all

He's rated about right - huge talent, prone to moments of genius and equal amounts of brain fade.

If he learns to cool down a tad he will be formidable.

P.S. - really interesting video, that's alot of flex going on there. It seemed to start as he arrived close to Button's car - something to do with the turbulent air changing the downforce the wing as producing?

[raymondu999]

Let's keep the thread to Vettel the driver and not the flexi-wing-car driver

And yes, I think the thing is that he's just still childish and immature. Basically, a very fast rookie.

[wittgenfrog]

There's a difference between defending your position and risking a collision and causing a needless collision when you're trying to overtake.

When Senna wanted to overtake he overtook, and you never saw him. When he defended his position he would risk a collision, but that's a psychological stand he took. This is most certainly not what Vettel is doing. It's just incompetence. To swerve to the outside when you realise the inside is closed, when it should have been obvious, and do it violently in a way that you lose control of the car, that's just a kamikaze move.

Indeed I rather doubt that anyone, least of all Button was "intimidated" in the way that Senna intimidated other drivers. Vettel's move in this instance had quite the contrary effect and JB (along with everyone else I suspect) is determined to beat Vettel next time out, giving him minimum leeway in the process.

As to his efforts on "slower" drivers his "Chop" on I think Liutzi (old age=bad memory for detail) was pretty pathetic and again serverd mainly to prove incompetence, not pecking-order. If you're going to play the "tough guy" you have to do it sucessfully, with a bit of panache.

Senna had the respect of other drivers. He earned a special status so that most other drivers kept clear. Vettel is at least a couple of WDCs and a lot of growing-up away from that status.

As I said in my earlier post he's a fast driver, but doesn't seem able to understand the mechanics of winning an F1 race except when he starts from Pole (and not that often then).

[BMW_F1]

My take on Vettel is that he is not a very good racer.. He is simply a very fast driver and gets very nervous when racing alongside other cars which leads to making all sorts of mistakes.. He's doing what DC did in his last two seasons before he retired, which was to crash with everyone that got too close to him.

[marcush.]

We have seen displays of very good racing wheel to wheel this year and I don´t think Vettel has contributed to taht very much.He´s not that brilliant in defending and has not improved since his TR days .But the puzzling thing is he´s so much on pole why should his weakness show even?
It does as very rarely the pole was translated into a clear flag to flag racewin .
He did not even win when the car was good enough to lap the field..how much of an advantage to you need to make it stick?

[ringo]

The problem is that he is not taking the races one at a time. He's not dealing with them as they come.
He's looking at the whole thing and getting himself nervous about being the youngest WDC. His teammate isn't making it easier for him either.
Vettel is watching Mark Webber too hard, while Mark doesn't give a damn about what Vettel does in the race. Mark is just taking them as they come and staying relaxed and focused.
It's sad to say, but if Vettel doesn't calm down, he wont even be runner up at the end of the year. It would be a step back from last year.

[ringo]

His front wing seems to be flexing/moving around quite a lot just before he hits Button . Could this be the cause of the accident or do they normaly move around that much ?


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBxNVoMXHz4[/youtube]

Well it's his car, if it's a bit difficult to overtake with, he should learn how to control it, whatever it throws at him.
You don't see Heiki and Glock crashing off because their car is behaving like crap or has a unique quirky behavior. If Vettel is as good as people think he should be on top of his car's behavior right now.
Mark overtook a few cars from the start and he managed pretty well with the Rb6.

[DaveKillens]

You're judging a rookie fighting for a championship in the final round?
And you use that to paint his career over?
Worst yet you compare a rookie to a champ like Alonso to show Alonso is the better overtaker. Alonso was never a master overtaker.

Yup, I do include his first year in assessing Hamilton. In fact, a lot of claims about his passing prowess is based on his performance in his rookie year. Like I said, to properly assess a driver you need to examine all aspects. Just focusing on just the high spots and electing to have selective amnesia does not offer a valid opinion.

I do take offence at the disrespect directed against Alonso. Although sometimes his antics resemble a TV episode of Monty Python, he is responsible for what is arguably the most ballsy and interesting pass in the last few years. At the 2005 Japanese GP Alonso passed Schumacher on the outside of turn 130R. And as mentioned previous, his pass on Hamilton at the 2007 Interlagos was one he had to perform, and executed.

As far as considering who is the best driver currently in Formula One, I can think of quite a few good canditates. First off, I believe Kubica is the number one, he has consistently punched above his weight and delivered a lot of points to Renault. The same applies to Sutil. In Williams Barrichello has done wonders for that team, being a part of the process that has brought Williams back into respectability. Each of these four drivers, including Hamilton, have beeen pivotal in the fortunes of their respective teams, and contributed in their own ways.

Obviously Vettel does not share the some kind of start to his Formula One career, his raw pace is being negated by his ability to make correct decisions.

[casper]

Comparing the video still starting at 5 secs to 7 seconds, we can see that the left wing elements were raised significantly. Any engineer here who can measure the displacement of the wing elements based on the photos? Is this a normal behavior of a front wing?

Should the FIA start mandating from now on that the all front wings should have a solid horizontal support to prevent this kind of oscillation on the grounds of safety? We have seen now 2 closely similar incidents of RB cars that lost control while attempting a pass. I think FIA should step in now. The drivers have been so lucky they only ended up with bruised egos. The next accident may end up much worse.

[ell66]

You're judging a rookie fighting for a championship in the final round?
And you use that to paint his career over?
Worst yet you compare a rookie to a champ like Alonso to show Alonso is the better overtaker. Alonso was never a master overtaker.

Yup, I do include his first year in assessing Hamilton. In fact, a lot of claims about his passing prowess is based on his performance in his rookie year. Like I said, to properly assess a driver you need to examine all aspects. Just focusing on just the high spots and electing to have selective amnesia does not offer a valid opinion.

I do take offence at the disrespect directed against Alonso. Although sometimes his antics resemble a TV episode of Monty Python, he is responsible for what is arguably the most ballsy and interesting pass in the last few years. At the 2005 Japanese GP Alonso passed Schumacher on the outside of turn 130R. And as mentioned previous, his pass on Hamilton at the 2007 Interlagos was one he had to perform, and executed.

As far as considering who is the best driver currently in Formula One, I can think of quite a few good canditates. First off, I believe Kubica is the number one, he has consistently punched above his weight and delivered a lot of points to Renault. The same applies to Sutil. In Williams Barrichello has done wonders for that team, being a part of the process that has brought Williams back into respectability. Each of these four drivers, including Hamilton, have beeen pivotal in the fortunes of their respective teams, and contributed in their own ways.

Obviously Vettel does not share the some kind of start to his Formula One career, his raw pace is being negated by his ability to make correct decisions.

..., you do realise how biased you come across and its fairly obvious your'e not a hamilon fan.
But looking back to brazil 07, the only reason alonso got past him was because kimi held lewis up leaving him no where to go coming out of the first corner...noting special from fernando at all.

I realy dont see how anyone cold doubt hamiltons passing ability either, hes far and away the number one overtaker currently, even from this year you only have to see australia, china and malasia from this year alone for proof.
and before you go onto to say "it was all back markers due to being out of position" well hes overtaken every single driver up front including both the bulls at one point or another. check out his passes on everyone in china, on rosberg in australia and even his own team mate.

as for kubica i dont understand why hes rated so highly, sure hes done well, but that renaults no slouch let me tell you. and his rookie team mate is flattering him for sure. Kubica struggled to beat heidfield at BMW and you cant seriously tell me he's top drawer. Its also worth noting he made more mistakes in spa than hamilton has ALL season. running wide at eu rouge letting button past, getting cought out by vettel at the re-start. and of course missing his pit box at the end costing him again. its like he was doing everything in his power to throw away that 2nd spot.

but to the subect of the thread, vettels pretty fat,allthouh not as fast as many make out, if he got his head sorted and improved his race craft hed do very well. allthugh i can safley say he will never be on the same level as lewis or even alonso for that matter.

[747heavy]

never thought that this was a "Hamilton fans only" forum.
Nothing wrong with your opinion, but after all it´s an Vettel thread.
I think Dave is one of the most formulated and well spoken posters here, I would be sad to see him go.

[PlatinumZealot]

Why does Hamilton always come up in a Vettel thread? I really want to know. Is it because the Vettel fans want him to be the best?

To Hang with Hamilton he's going to have to pay Herr Schumacher for some race craft lessons. I mean he's only 9 races younger than Hamilton and he is racing like a Rookie.