Flexible wings controversy 2010

[747heavy]

1. If it is an electrical cable, why is it quite so stiff? Even solid core, 2.5mm flat twin and earth cable (as would comfortably carry 4Kw) would be difficult to make it stand upright over a span of 1 metre.

I don´t know if you have seen/used the kind of cable which is used in racing cars.
Normally it´s an aircraft spec cable, which uses a teflon isolation. These teflon isolations are quite stiff/ in comparsion to a PVC/rubber or silicone isolation on your houshold/computer cable.
I would expect, that you have more then used two wires (+/-) in this cable. It´s more like 5-6 IMHO, for position feedback to the ECU etc. If you twist these different wires and but them into some heat shrink, they become rather stiff.
But of course I could be wrong - as I don´t know for sure.

Why would a OD 6mm braided steel wire stand up like this?

I don´t know, what this cable/wire is/was, but I would think it is unlikely, that RBR would use such a device. But eveything is possible in motor racing.
After all, it´s such my personal opinion.

[djos]

I just re-watched this clip and noticed something. Look at the image around 21-22 seconds, and you will see Vettel running off the circuit after the smash with Button. As he begins to catch up with his front wing which is sliding along the ground in front of him, you can quite clearly see a stiff cable (looks like high-tensile steel), standing up approximately one metre out of the remaining wing pylon.

If this were a cable for adjusting the FW flap, it would be an electrical cable, probably featuring at least three cores, which would more than likely be a flexible cable, which would not stand up on it's own (if you don't believe me, grab a 1 metre flex from the back of your PC and try and make it stand up on the palm of your hand!).

What on earth is this cable for? Could this be the key to their flexi-wings? I know others have suggested the RB6 wing might feature a cable concealed within it which could be tightened or slackened to allow the wing to remain stiff (for the test) or flex (for the race), but I've never seen any evidence of such a cable actually existing before now!

I thought RBR used micro hydraulics to adjust the flaps, not electric motors?

[strad]

1. If it is an electrical cable, why is it quite so stiff? Even solid core, 2.5mm flat twin and earth cable (as would comfortably carry 4Kw) would be difficult to make it stand upright over a span of 1 metre.

I don´t know if you have seen/used the kind of cable which is used in racing cars.
Normally it´s an aircraft spec cable, which uses a teflon isolation. These teflon isolations are quite stiff/ in comparsion to a PVC/rubber or silicone isolation on your houshold/computer cable.
I would expect, that you have more then used two wires (+/-) in this cable. It´s more like 5-6 IMHO, for position feedback to the ECU etc. If you twist these different wires and but them into some heat shrink, they become rather stiff.
But of course I could be wrong - as I don´t know for sure.

Why would a OD 6mm braided steel wire stand up like this?

I don´t know, what this cable/wire is/was, but I would think it is unlikely, that RBR would use such a device. But eveything is possible in motor racing.
After all, it´s such my personal opinion.

I hesitate to offer an opinion anymore but since I agree totally with 747heavy I can't help but pipe up...and at least in my mind, I have to echo why would a small cable stand up so stiffly? If it was to be used in some pulley like arrangement, would it not need to be flexible?...Of course that's just my opinion. and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

[747heavy]

Hi Forty-two,
just because you got me thinking, have a look at the Webber-Valencia crash video, if you like. When he takes off, you will see for a short moment a cable/wire/fibre whiping up from the nose of the car. It´s about 50-75 cm long, you need to pay attention, it´s only to be seen for a second, so maybe you need to watch it a couple of times.
It´s at 0:34 -0:35 min in the video. Later you will see some cable dangeling from the car where the nose cone fits, after the car slams into the barrier.

I stand by my opinion ( which does not make it more right ), but have a look and make up your mind, if you like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bpZkBWqf94

Have a nice day

[strad]

video posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2160&p=195984#p195984

[Halgovern]

what if the two pillars connecting the front wing to the nose cone isn't actually connected to the nose cone? What if they go through two slits into the nosecone and are connected to some sort of spring mechanism inside the nosecone, allowing the front wing to deflect downwards at any rate they want it to?

I am not talking about the entire nose,just the detachable nose cone. The mechanism would be independent of the rest of the car.

Also, the mechanism could be set up so that the amount of extension is zero (only the outer sections of the wing deflect, the central section is rigid) until 200N and then the whole wing starts to lower itself , thus complying with FIA rules. And the most elegant thing would be that the whole thing is neatly packaged inside the front section of the nosecone, so no one would see a thing if they had to change nose cones or the nosecone broke.

Think about it, the nosecone of the redbull is pretty massive anyway. Enough volume for a spring me thinks.

Two hollow pillars with cables running through it would also do the same thing I think. Anyway, its just a theory, entirely thought up while sitting on a chair

[marcush.]

there is a difference between a tweaking of regs -design your part to perform a desirable deformation under load-it is not legal in the sense of :you have to adhere to the rule wich says not moving relative to the reference plane...
and what you are proposing which is a blatant cheat with a mechanical device that
has no other purpose than allow the wing to flex.
I cannot imagine that this would go unoticed or got tolerated let alone RB needs to do so with their expertise .

[djos]

You guy's speculating about tricky cables etc are deluded!

RBR are simply using clever carbon-fibre lay-up processes to construct their wings giving them non-linear flexing, nothing more is required to do this!

[forty-two]

You guy's speculating about tricky cables etc are deluded!

I hope you got a good payout when you sued the charm school you attended!

I'm merely discussing possibilities.

[marcush.]

i´d think this picture clearly shows the ferrari plank is anything but straight...you can see its almost paralell to the ground from the leading edge till some 1000mm and then rises up ...

[scooter_rus]

video posted here:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2160&p=195984#p195984

What if it's just front wing control system?

[wesley123]

check the wing itself, you see that the way its built it isnt possible to achieve that.

[747heavy]

if you look at the video from the Alonso crash in Monaco, when the car comes back into the pits, before the Ferrari mechanics cover it, you can see a cable running trhough
the right hand side pillar of their FW, so it seems to be a not so uncommon solution.
Every theory put forward here, is as good as the one from the next guy - IMHO.
I enjoy our exchange of possibilities here. Some are more likely then others, but all are speculation at the end. Maybe one day in the future we will find out about it.
But I agree with Marcus, that there is a line between smart engineering and blatantly breaking the rules. Everything is possible, but I would think that RBR and Ferrari are on the smart engineering side, and some other teams are a bit more/too conversative in their interpretation of the rules. I´m sure every composite engineer in F1, worth it´s pay, knows how to make such a wing in principle. Some where allowed/encouraged to do it, and others not by there managment.
But again, thats just my 2 cents worth of opinion

[marcush.]

I would in principle tend to be of this opinion ..but then to hear that some teams have their splitter/tray area hinged to the rest of the flat floor seems almost unbelievable to me..
I thought this wa over since a long time with ferrari the one who had their tray move up around 20mm when hitting a curb...
so as you said everythings possible..

[siskue2005]

i´d think this picture clearly shows the ferrari plank is anything but straight...you can see its almost paralell to the ground from the leading edge till some 1000mm and then rises up ...

First off all its not parallel u can clearly see the rake
they had a Wet setup, so i shouldnt we expect it to be raised ....and making it flat
and also the wet tyres raise the ride height more, especially in the front.