Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

Scotracer wrote:Off the top of my head, Carnot is around 42%?
If we assume the temperature in combustion chamber to be 2300K and exhaust temperature 1200K, we would have ~48% (that is without mechanical and cooling losses).

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:You can get around Carnot by using multi stage machinery as you do in stationary power generation.
You can't.
Actually the ultimate Carnot cycle has cooler temperature of 0K and 100% efficiency. Saying you can get around Carnot is like saying you can have efficiency >100%.

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

Ok, I will rephrase. You can get around the Carnot limitations of a single working engine by using combinations of multiple working engines.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:Ok, I will rephrase. You can get around the Carnot limitations of a single working engine by using combinations of multiple working engines.
You can still define temperature and entropy change of the whole system (even if you convert heat to electricity etc) and it would be within Carnot's limit. Because it is a square on T-S diagram.

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

strad wrote:I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
Not in practice either according to Gyro.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
agip
3
Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 22:44

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:I have thought about the way F1 is going to restrict fuel use from 2013 onwards. Most people have followed Autosport's interpretation of a technical fuel flow limit.
Autosport wrote:In a bid to further increase F1's green credentials, teams are also keen for there to be a fuel flow rate limit - which will ensure the engines are economical.
The Autosport interpretation is based on an original quote by Sam Michael.
Sam Michael wrote:Rather than dump as much fuel in as we can at the moment, there will be a fuel flow metre – so you won’t be able to blow more than a certain amount of fuel. It is a good chunk less than we had at the moment.
When I read this carefully I could also come to the conclusion that Michael talks about a flow meter on the pump when the fuel is filled into the car. He talks about a certain amount of fuel that can be used and not about a flow rate to the engine. I would much prefer that solution and we would have to wait and see what they decide.
Hmm... did you watch this vid?
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w39wcmDj2Rg[/youtube]

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

Yes I saw the video and agree with having both fuel restrictions. Cosworth made some excellent points IMO. And I will comment on some points here.
  • F1 needs to continue avoiding a spending race and remain financially viable
  • use a small number of regulatory fixed points to incourage innovation
  • limit amount of fuel and fuel flow
  • total freedom to capture waste energy
  • team and driver doing the best job with a fixed amount of resources to win
  • go from today's high drag to a low drag configuration and bring back overtaking
  • waste energy recovery will make cars go faster and create developments which will be relevant to areas outside motor racing
  • if F1 does not do this in 2013 the attractiveness for new entrants to F1 will diminish to the detriment of the sport
There are a lot of good points in Cosworth's philosophy which are impacting on the sporting regulations and the chassis regulations.

I just hope that their plans do not get too much watered down. One concern is that the fuel cap and the fuel flow limit is set too high so that the high drag chassis can continue. Teams like Red Bull are likely to protect their current supremacy in high drag chassis design and ambush the low drag plan. In that case the engine plans will not work either. The plan can only work if high efficiency is promoted in engine and chassis regulation by strict fuel limitation. This means at least 25% under the currently used fuel levels with an annual reduction of 5-8% in the following years.

The other point is the cost containment and resource restriction. Engine longevity and sales price caps need to continue to prevent a new arms race like the one from 1996-2006. In exchange more technical freedom of design should be given to make F1 more innovative than today. Successful teams should be prevented from re investing all revenues into the sport. They should be forced to compete on fixed resources to bring more variety and independently based teams into the competition.

Naturally my other concern is that the strict resource restriction which will apply in 2012 will be watered down for 2013 again.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

strad wrote:I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
No its not true. Thats like saying that the bicycle would not work either!

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

WhiteBlue wrote: Teams like Red Bull are likely to protect their current supremacy in high drag chassis design and ambush the low drag plan.
I would imagine the opposite. Newey would relish the challenge, but the down side is that whoever came up with the magic formula, would then be subjected to constant complaints by the other times, and calls for "clarification".
Last edited by mx_tifoso on 07 Sep 2010, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed quote

timbo
timbo
113
Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

gilgen wrote:but the down side is that whoever came up with the magic formula, would then be subjected to constant complaints by the other times, and calls for "clarification".
Depends on how well rules are written. IMO 5 cm min radius rule is a good example of the rule that does not really produce ambiguity (there were questions about exhausts on Ferrari F60 but it was immediately settled down).

User avatar
WhiteBlue
92
Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 20:58
Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

gilgen wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote: Teams like Red Bull are likely to protect their current supremacy in high drag chassis design and ambush the low drag plan.
I would imagine the opposite. Newey would relish the challenge, but the down side is that whoever came up with the magic formula, would then be subjected to constant complaints by the other times, and calls for "clarification".
There is no ambiguity in a race fuel limit of 110 kg or a flow limit of 25 g/s. There is only the problem that some may not commit to it.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

gilgen wrote:
strad wrote:I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
No its not true. Thats like saying that the bicycle would not work either!
Well it is true...They also say that in theroy a plane can't fly
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

gilgen wrote:
strad wrote:I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
No its not true. Thats like saying that the bicycle would not work either!
I don't know how you come to that conclusion but it is true...They also said that in theory a plane can't fly. ;)
Last edited by strad on 07 Sep 2010, 20:00, edited 1 time in total.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

aral
aral
26
Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Technical Regulations for 2009-2015

Post

strad wrote:
gilgen wrote:
strad wrote:I was going to mention this before in another context...Is it not true that in theory the internal combustion engine will not work?
No its not true. Thats like saying that the bicycle would not work either!
I don't know how you come to that conclusion but it is true...They also say that in theory a plane can't fly. ;)
A bike is pwered in a similar fashion to an ICE. force is applied to a crank which in turn changes it to a circular drive, to provide propulsion. And by the way, there is no theory to say that a plane cannot fly. Now a bunble bee, THAT@S different.