Italian GP 2010 - Monza

[Scotracer]

Looking at the speed trap results since RBR introduced their F-duct, I really don't see how Red Bull will struggle at Monza - they might be a couple of km/h down on the fastest but they're definitely up there now.

[wesley123]

I dont see why, on Montreal and Spa they were nowhere. They might be still in the front but in the race they could no way challenge Hamilton, whom I doubt drove on its limit. And then Monza is even worse. On the straights they are nowhere, and i doubt anyone would run the F-duct at monza so that is gone too.

[FW17]

Current F1 with rev limited at 18000 rpm, it is not about the top speed difference but how soon they accelerate to the top speed. This is where the engine power matters.

Renault might have good drivability and torque which will help in the first quarter of a straight but then it is all about the power. A McLaren or a Force India will reach the top speed (hit the rev limiter) sooner than a Renault and red bull but the difference in top speed just before breaking will be minimal. Concern for the Renault engine cars will be this difference in hitting top speed at Monza.

[Scotracer]

Monza has two requirements: Ability to ride kerbs/mechanical grip and top speed. The Red Bull seems pretty good over bumps and out of corners (along with the R30) and its top speed is still fairly competitive.

[wesley123]

yes, and where was red bull last year at monza? they were fourth fastest i believe? The car changed nothing on faster tracks, it is just proven. The car is quick on high downforce tracks, but as soon as the need for top speed kicks in their advantage decreases, see Turkey and Germany for example, where they had a hard fight to keep in front, then we come to even slightly faster track, where there is even more need for top speed, their lead decreases and their car aint fastest anymore. If kerb riding etc. gave such an advantage i would at least epxected them to be quick on spa and montreal, and there they werent fastest at all. Now we come to an track with nearly no turns and it is all about top speed which the Red Bull is clearly lacking, so they might have that advantage of kerb riding and traction out of the turns, but that doesnt even come close to outweigh their loss on the straight with their lower top speed and as WilliamsF1 said, they also reach theiur top speed later, so they just lose. I might see them on the [podium, but they have no chance for a win.

Also remember, McLaren is using an front splitter which is simple said, ultra draggy, they might lose that piece which will give them even more top speed.

[FW17]

Monza has two requirements: Ability to ride kerbs/mechanical grip and top speed. The Red Bull seems pretty good over bumps and out of corners (along with the R30) and its top speed is still fairly competitive.

McLarens are always one of the best cars over the bumps and jump over kerbs, it is part of their engineering experience from the previous decades. This year the car has issues with the bumps mainly because of their rear aero concept for the double diffuser. The mclaren diffuser is more sensitive to ride height changes than the other cars making them look bad over the kerbs and bumps.

This will be a non-issue with monza being a low down force circuit with chicanes which do not require aero assistance.


Reb Bull cannot be totally discounted, Newey might spring a surprise on rest of the cars with an all new ultra low drag package with a single diffuser.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Will a single diffuser not be a bad idea?

Given the long high speed right hander that leads onto the straight I would say the points gained by not having it will be negated by not having the added downforce to slingshot you out Curva parabolica? Curva Grande too would pose a couple of questions....

[ell66]

Will a single diffuser not be a bad idea?

Given the long high speed right hander that leads onto the straight I would say the points gained by not having it will be negated by not having the added downforce to slingshot you out Curva parabolica? Curva Grande too would pose a couple of questions....

lol curve grande would never be an issue.

[thestig84]

i doubt anyone would run the F-duct at monza so that is gone too.

You seem quite forceful on the point. Im not sure how you can be so convinced when Ferrari, Mclaren, Renault and Redbull are all planning back to back tests on the friday. Force India arent decided yet and STR might introduce their newly tested one at Monza. All that along with (as linked earlier) Sam Micheal reckons running it is a no brainer.

just tweeted by Gary Paffett

GaryPaffett
@markblundellF1 It will depend on what downforce level people choose to run, I predict a few rear wing changes lunchtime on Friday.

I dont think it is as clear cut decision as you have been making out.

[horse]

This f-duct thing is quite interesting really. My question would be what is the disadvantage to running it here? Does the system demand a bit more wing than they would like to put on to make it fit? Do they need the centre of the wing to be working in uber low downforce mode? Something must be worrying them or it would be a no brainer as SM said.

[hollus]

I would think that the F-duct at Monza adds a bit of drag, both through skin drag (was always there) and by increasing the effective cross section of the ultra flat rear wings (Monza specific).
It is also some kilos (can anybody estimate how many?) that are quite high in the car, and the car has to be carried through chicanes where a high center of gravity might be particularly harmful.

[andrew]

Just a side thought, it is 40 years since Jochen Rindt was killed during practice for the Italian GP.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_ ... t_id=41901

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jochen_Rindt

[mp4-19b]

Here is an Analysis of Monza using Motec i2 pro(Mainly braking)

Monza has no shortage of heavy braking points, this should go against Red Bull who,in addition to having an allegedly underpowered & unreliable(So says Chris Horner )engine, have suffered brake related issues earlier in the season . The major braking points are Rettifilo Tribune, Variante della Roggia, Variante Ascari & the entry into the parabolica. One could classify the lesmo’s as moderate braking zones.

Used in the analysis are various parameters.

1) A map of the circuit with a small dot indicating the position of the car. (note the darker colour in the braking zones)

2) Brake pedal position (notice how it reaches peak position often)

3) Throttle position(green)

4)Then there is a numeric bar gauge displaying longitudinal & lateral g-forces

5) Then there is a red colour graph of brake-pedal position(in %) vs time(in sec) notice where it reaches its peak.

6) Then there is a green colour graph of throttle pedal position (in%) vs time(in sec)

7) One more graph depicts brake temperature vs time ( Notice that the brake temperatures easily exceeds 1000c, unlike spa)

There are 3 gauges displaying the Gear,engine rpm & cornering speed.

9) In addition to the above, included is a Scatter Plot of Brake temperature( in Celsius) Vs Engine RPM(in rpm)

10) You can also see the variation of the brake temperature in the numeric bar gauge.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7P-Rkikv-U[/youtube]

[ringo]

This f-duct thing is quite interesting really. My question would be what is the disadvantage to running it here? Does the system demand a bit more wing than they would like to put on to make it fit? Do they need the centre of the wing to be working in uber low downforce mode? Something must be worrying them or it would be a no brainer as SM said.

You can add to that which teams are blowing the lower element and which are blowing the upper element.
teams blowing the lower one, with slender duct, such as renault may have it easier since it would be more naturally place on those Monza wings.
Mclaren blowns the second element and their slot is pretty high up the wing, they may be thinking about blowing the lower one now because of the shorter wing.

[raymondu999]

To be fair a Red Bull did win (kinda) in 2008