Talking to a turbo expert

[Scotracer]

I think the Mini is supercharged isn't it?

The pre-2006 Cooper S was supercharged but the current S is Turbo-charged. A bit late to the conversation but heh, my parents have one so I thought I should chip in.

[marcush.]

the two cars look very similar but are completely different.
The old engine was some brasil chrysler-rover engine the new one has a Peugeot engine .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritec_engine

the pug is called prince engine..

[xpensive]

Why would that need energy? Can't they use springs or hydraulic pressure without flow?

Not for the direct power figures you require. Heavy enough spring (non flow) actuation would in anycase increase torque loss the higher the torque transfered through the system. So the actual efficiency has to be variable and cannot be quoted as one figure anyway. Dont forget, all transmission systems have variable efficiency depending on the ratio of transfer and varying frictional losses. With this toloroidal system frictional losses are much increased keeping the disks under pressure.

Utter nonsense, metal-to-metal rolling friction is only partially dependent on contact-pressure, compare with a roller-bearing where the viscous-losses are where your energy goes.

I can see the torodial thing either preloaded with a constant spring-load, like clutch, or through a constant- or variable hydraulic pressure, where neither should consume any power worth mentioning in the context, even if you throttle as much as 1 Lpm to 10 MPa, that's no more than 170 W, or 0.37% of 45 kW.

[autogyro]

http://www.aeristech.co.uk/index.html

So why bother turbo compounding or using complex heavy and inefficient toloroidal systems. They are old technology.

[WhiteBlue]

I think that they will simply use the systems with the highest efficiency and the lowest weight. This can well be the Torotrak turbo compounder but electric turbo compounding can also not be excluded in connection with KERS. If you do not have KERS the weight of the electric motor and inverter to convert the electric energy would be prohibitive.

As it stands you will most likely have KERS and the motors will have to be sized a bit bigger to deal with the additional power. We just should not kid ourselves about the efficiency of a double electric conversion. The efficiency of that is unlikely to be much better than 81-85%. So the jury is still out which technology is heavier and more efficient.

The main issue I see is making turbo compounding legal against the interest of those who want to run standardize turbo chargers. Whether the compounding is done mechanically or electrically is a minor issue IMO.

[autogyro]

The current from a turbo generator can be sent primarily to a powertrain motor generator for direct traction.
Excess can be fed to batteries (or a combination using capacitors or flywheel as well to improve charge/apply times)along with energy harvested from braking.
Stored energy from batteries can be used to drive compressor on induction as needed and can also be used for gearshifts on a intigral gearbox KERS/HYBRID unit.

[WhiteBlue]

The current from a turbo generator can be sent primarily to a powertrain motor generator for direct traction.
Excess can be fed to batteries (or a combination using capacitors or flywheel as well to improve charge/apply times)along with energy harvested from braking.
Stored energy from batteries can be used to drive compressor on induction as needed and can also be used for gearshifts on a intigral gearbox KERS/HYBRID unit.

You are not telling us anything new there. The point is that the double conversion from mechanical power to electrical and back requires the energy to be passed through two MGUs and two inverters. The weight of those installations and an electric storage capacity is not free even when you use KERS. You add weight for using the MGUs, the battery and the inverters that are not needed with a CVT. HERS with turbo compounding can produce more recovered energy than KERS. If the electric power train has to deal with the much increased loads everything gets heavier.

[autogyro]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

[timbo]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

Much heavier than F1 gearbox.

[xpensive]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

I wonder if there's something your magic 'box cannot do Gyro, whistling "Waltzing Mathilda" perhaps?

[autogyro]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

Much heavier than F1 gearbox.

Nope the geartrain would be lighter and the casing would contain even burst loads.
No clutch either and 99.9% efficient in top direct gear.

[autogyro]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

I wonder if there's something your magic 'box cannot do Gyro, whistling "Waltzing Mathilda" perhaps?

Perhaps

I dont see you arguing against a split turbine generator/compressor motor however.
Toloroidal is old technology. Looked at it in the 70s along with friction drive fluids and electro activated fluids.
Useful in instrumentation drives and machinery, not performance applications.

[ringo]

Autogyro, you gearbox is an electrical desing?

[WhiteBlue]

What if the KERS/HYBRID motor/generator is also the gearbox with no extra gearing and capable of both harvesting and applying electrical energy at the same time?

It still would not disable the laws of physics. You still have to have separate electric generating capacity, electric buffering and separate electric motor capacity. A permanently working turbo extraction does not allow you to use the same MGU that you can use for KERS. You must install separate capacity and that forces the two conversions. However clever you arrange that mechanically it would still have the same weight and the same losses of a conventional design. Double electromechanical conversion puts you at 81-85% efficiency before we even speak about buffering with batteries, capacitors or flywheels.

I'm not going to believe that you have disabled the laws of thermodynamics unless you show us how.

[autogyro]

The MGU for KERS/HYBRID use in the powertrain 'is' the gearbox. one and the same unit an ESERU. (with a lighter geartrain, more compact, stronger and no direct engagement clutch but still with seven fixed stepped ratios).
Electricity generated by the turbo generator can be fed directly to it for primary motive power at the same time electricity from battery, flywheel or capacitor storage is also fed to it for the same purpose.
Under braking the (MGU)/ESERU harvests braking energy to storage as does the turbo generator. This is then fed back to the ESERU as primary motive power on acceleration. The ic engine augments this application of power up to the level demanded by the throttle pedal and control system.
There is no need for seperate or extra MGU's as all these functions are dealt with by the Electric Shift Energy Recovery Unit.
Control over turbine load and operation is far better than any mechanical flybrid system or other mechanical geared system, as is electric drive control over the intake compressor. For maximum power bursts, full intake pressure can be selected with minimum load on the exhaust turbine plus full electric apply from all available electrical storage.
At the other extreem, the ic engine can be turned off completely and primary drive from electrical storage only used. The ic engine could also be un-coupled from the powertrain (without using a clutch, there would be no conventional clutch)and run solely to generate electricity to storage to augment brake energy harvesting, useful when blowing a diffuser under braking, without wasting the energy used to provide the extra exhaust gas volume.
Non of this tries to rewrite the laws of physics, as all methods of energy harvesting from either braking or exhaust gas require a dual energy conversion at or around the quoted efficiency. However this nowhere near takes into account the many other improved control, and efficiency benefits that this system provides.