Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

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zgred
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 13:02

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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mep wrote:
gilgen wrote:
thestig84 wrote:According to BBCs Mr popular Mclaren wont be running new rear wing

Twitter: legardj Jonathan Legard
Hearing that McLaren won't be running their new rear wing

Seems odd to go to massive hassle and fly one out for LH then with no running since Friday they decide they dont want to run it.
It may have something to do with possible defective construction. Look at the photos of the end plates. The carbon fibre has delaminated very very badly. It looks as if the layers did not bond to each other. I have never come across such delamination before, and Mclaren should have serious concerns about their lay-up process.
In which picture do you see this?
Can you post it?
Image

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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mep wrote:
gilgen wrote:
thestig84 wrote:According to BBCs Mr popular Mclaren wont be running new rear wing

Twitter: legardj Jonathan Legard
Hearing that McLaren won't be running their new rear wing

Seems odd to go to massive hassle and fly one out for LH then with no running since Friday they decide they dont want to run it.
It may have something to do with possible defective construction. Look at the photos of the end plates. The carbon fibre has delaminated very very badly. It looks as if the layers did not bond to each other. I have never come across such delamination before, and Mclaren should have serious concerns about their lay-up process.
In which picture do you see this?
Can you post it?
I'm not sure how to post another photo. Zgreds photo is not the one, but if you go to the shots of the rear wing, from the back, you will see the problem on the left hand side. One poster even thought that it was a purpose built channel in the wing. Perhaps one of the more experienced posters could transfer the picture.

This is page 223, the photo is on page 221, about halfway down.

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zgred
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Joined: 16 Mar 2009, 13:02

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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You mean:

Image

or:

Image

The one I posted last time is only confirmation of the old wing in use.

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mep
29
Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Ah yea when I saw the picture I also thought this is build like this but when I look closer and think about the rules (which don't allow such a wing imo) I agree there is a serious problem with the bond.

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Afterburner
1
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:24

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Look at the gills and F-duct, the wing isn't the same the one mentioned by zgred.

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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zgred wrote:You mean:

Image

or:

Image

The one I posted last time is only confirmation of the old wing in use.

Yes, thanks, thats the one! I hope that their tubs are better built!

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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It's obviously built fine anyone can see it took damage in the rear. This is why Mclarens don't come apart at speed under normal conditions. :roll:
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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You want to tell me that it is build fine when you can see that the layers separated????
Honestly it doesn't matter if there was a crash or not the piece should never fail like this.
The hole piece can break but the bond between the layers must stay intact otherwise the strength of the part is significantly reduced.

Giblet
Giblet
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Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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I would simply assume that all their builds are done the same. Maybe the section is hollow to save weight and held together at the edges, I don't know. Maybe there was a mistake in the laying process, but without knowing everything I can't assume that it's a defect as of yet.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Owen.C93
Owen.C93
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Joined: 24 Jul 2010, 17:52

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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That wing is fine, it's not meant to experience loads like that. And you can see it held up on the wing section fine, but the end plates are separate (see the join under the bottom flap in pic 1).

And remember that the old wing did exactly the same thing to Jenson when Alonso hit him, the inner carbon fibre from the endplate flew off.

So it cant the reason for using the old RW.
Motorsport Graduate in search of team experience ;)

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Don't forget that the rear wing end plates are just aero parts now with little, if any, structural role. The rear wing is centrally supported these days so even if the end plate failed totallt, the only thing likely to happen is that the rear end aero becomes less effective.

I'd have been more worried if the central pillar had shown some damage from the impact, however.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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Just_a_fan wrote:Don't forget that the rear wing end plates are just aero parts now with little, if any, structural role. The rear wing is centrally supported these days so even if the end plate failed totallt, the only thing likely to happen is that the rear end aero becomes less effective.

I'd have been more worried if the central pillar had shown some damage from the impact, however.
The end plates DO have a structural role. . Without those, the ends of the wing would droop under air pressure, which can be quite severe. I doubt that the plates are hollow, as foam would be used so as to provide the required shape and rigidity. I still see it as a poor lay-up, or bonding problem, which shouldn't really be happening.
Another peculiarity is the way that the outer layer is bent. CF is quite rigid and brittle, and if not formed to that shape, it should have shattered. A small amount of flexibility is available, but hardly a sharp s-bend.

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lkocev
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Joined: 25 Jan 2009, 08:34

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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gilgen wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:Don't forget that the rear wing end plates are just aero parts now with little, if any, structural role. The rear wing is centrally supported these days so even if the end plate failed totallt, the only thing likely to happen is that the rear end aero becomes less effective.

I'd have been more worried if the central pillar had shown some damage from the impact, however.
The end plates DO have a structural role. . Without those, the ends of the wing would droop under air pressure, which can be quite severe. I doubt that the plates are hollow, as foam would be used so as to provide the required shape and rigidity. I still see it as a poor lay-up, or bonding problem, which shouldn't really be happening.
Another peculiarity is the way that the outer layer is bent. CF is quite rigid and brittle, and if not formed to that shape, it should have shattered. A small amount of flexibility is available, but hardly a sharp s-bend.
I think your getting something a little wrong, the mechanical properties of carbon fiber reinforced plastics, is mostly dependent on the lay-up of the carbon fiber. What you see is component failure because the component was exposed to a loading that exceded what it was designed to take, in either direction or magnatude, or both. The bottom line is, if it is strong enough to take the maximum loading under normal racing conditions, then there is no problem. No team designs end plates to be the ultimate load-bearing components, there function, as pointed out earlier, is mostly aero-dynamic. There is no point in making a component handle these kinds of ab-normal loading.

Your right, carbon fiber reinforced plastics are normally quite rigid and brittle. But that doesn't mean that it is not capable of flexing at all, the only difference is, that unlike metals, you cannot permanently deform it, with out fracturing it, it doesn't have ductile properties. However, if you have ever seen carbon fiber reinforced fishing rods, you will see that those products are capable of flexing quite a lot, but not deform. I would suggest that the end plate is 2 seperate pieces that were bonded together, and the one that appears bent into an "S" shape is not actually permanetly deformed, but simply held in that paticular position where it is flexing. Remember it is still attached to the the wing, and there could be some broken components underneath the end plate forcing it to flex up in that position.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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When looking at the wing, it looks like it is held together on the edges with those circular dots running on the underside profile of the rear wing element.

It looks like this is where it came apart.

The less 'glue' needed the less weight in a higher area. I suggested the wing endplate is hollow, maybe it is designed to deform slightly at speed?

I'm just not sure. There is a user on this site that understand the process at Mclaren intimately. Hopefully he can shed some light.

Conni? You around?
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Boost
Boost
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Joined: 14 Jun 2010, 19:21

Re: Mclaren Mercedes MP4/25

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raymondu999 wrote:Renault is certainly doing wonders in terms of their car development if McLaren is copying Renault's mainplane-blowing f-duct rather than continuing with their own design. It shows quite a bit of development greatness in Renault's pocket. I think the FW is the same as they had in Singapore. Talking of the RW, the flap already looks less agressive, though I don't know why they'd use less wing on a circuit as technical as Suzuka
Renault were only copying Sauber though.