Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[zgred]

[kalinka]

Nobody here?

After the race, one question bothers me most: Where did McLaren lost their wet-weather performance ? In China they were superior in wet, and since then it was evident that they almost never lack front grip in wet conditions. Their front end was always very strong all year, especially in wet. So the question is : was it a setup problem, or the other teams jumped them over so much since then ? It was strange to see that LH can't attack or even defense properly.

EDIT : Maybe they concentrated so much on rear downforce (EBD,diffusor,new rear wing) that the front DF is not enough now to balance it out ?

[shotzski]

Or could they have de-tuned their engines a bit, and then maximize them in the final 2 races?

[ringo]

Aside from the wet weather performance we have seen a drop in the f duct's effectiveness in the wet.
I believe this can be blamed on blowing the lower element. The ducting is more restrictive and seems to be sensitive in damp conditions.
If Mclaren are setting up for a wet race it could be best to use the old F duct system.
The Korean race saw the Mclarens really fast in the dry at the speed trap, but lost it's straight line advantage when the atmosphere got more humid and noisy with rain.

So mclaren have to re evaluate this one for any signs of weakness in the wet.

who knows if water can settle in the wing or create a choking effect at speeds.

They can see if it's best to use this one in Brazil, a race which normally sees rain.

this duct seems more suited for rain. The straight through ducting has less end losses IMO and droplets cannot settle in the path of the air.

[ringo]

Another thing to talk about on this car is it's lack of pace and grip to the ferrari and redbull.
I believe it's based solely on the shape of the car. The redbull and f10 being the most alike. Mclaren have thrown everything at the Mp4 and they simply cannot find the pace.

The only avenues they have left to develope is the car's diffuser and ride quality.
The body is a lost cause, the little wing updates are not enough.

[King Six]

Another thing to talk about on this car is it's lack of pace and grip to the ferrari and redbull.
I believe it's based solely on the shape of the car. The redbull and f10 being the most alike. Mclaren have thrown everything at the Mp4 and they simply cannot find the pace.

The only avenues they have left to develope is the car's diffuser and ride quality.
The body is a lost cause, the little wing updates are not enough.

This is what I've been generally thinking too. I reckon it's quite likely we'll see pull-rod, narrow V-nose type cars for all the top teams next season. Especially with the return of proper diffusers.

KERS should be more useful with the extra knowledge of 2009 and the increase in minimum weight to 240Kg.

Then there's the adjustable rear wing, which could throw up some interesting solutions.

Is there a thread discussing the 2011 cars and the possibilities of what they might be like

[forty-two]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but after the race, during the BBC F1 Forum, Jenson said he was running an experimental part on his car which Lewis was not, and that he thinks that this caused his lack of DF.

Does anyone know what this part was?

[King Six]

Kravitz said it was suspension parts on his post-race analysis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 122188.stm

[MikeFromCanada]

Quote from Lewis from autosport.com

We are struggling with the car in high-speed corners, where it is bottoming a lot.

Regarding Jenson's car, could it be possible the suspension part (as King Six alluded to) was used to raise his car just enough to avoid bottoming out, however with the consequence of losing aero grip in the process? Would explain a bit his lack of grip, and we do know the McLaren requires a pretty stiff suspension in order to maximise their downforde levels.

[ringo]

Jenson ran with the "excuses" arm flextures.
A suspension part can't make you that slow, his suspension settings should still be able to allow enough degrees of freedom to get the car to the point he feels comfortable and the car is quick enough.

If anything Mclaren are wasting time making custom "training wheels" parts for Button, when they should be focused on making it more edgy for Hamilton.

The car was crap in the rain, but a little adaptability could have at least seen Jenson overtaking one of the back markers. The car is still a Mclaren!

It's possible the car is bottoming when Mclaren try softening the suspension like Ferrari or redbull. They may be trying to figure out if the redbull's suspension is partly to do with the control arm structure, maybe contributing some bind or flex at certain ride heights. Or they may be investigating the damping.

[ESPImperium]

who knows if water can settle in the wing or create a choking effect at speeds.

They can see if it's best to use this one in Brazil, a race which normally sees rain.

this duct seems more suited for rain. The straight through ducting has less end losses IMO and droplets cannot settle in the path of the air.

The top one is the one that Sauber used early on, and the one that Force India and Renault have. This system is the one that is the cheapest form and the form that is hardest to re-attache the air flow back onto. Its the same system STR are trying to get to work for them.

The lower pic is the systtem used by Ferarri, Williams and Red Bull, its the more expencive system to develop, but alsothe most effective and easiest to attach the air flow back onto the wing. It is also the one that has less drag taken off now that Renault have developed the cheapest system to take off the maximum ammount of drag.

Maybes McLaren want more drag to come off now, so they can have more straight line speed and more downforce in the highspeed corners.

I just dont know where to go on this one... Have McLaren now lost the F-Duct as their main advantage???

[megasyxx]

they may have lost their f-duct advantage as almost all of the teams carry this device.

[ell66]

who knows if water can settle in the wing or create a choking effect at speeds.

They can see if it's best to use this one in Brazil, a race which normally sees rain.

this duct seems more suited for rain. The straight through ducting has less end losses IMO and droplets cannot settle in the path of the air.

The top one is the one that Sauber used early on, and the one that Force India and Renault have. This system is the one that is the cheapest form and the form that is hardest to re-attache the air flow back onto. Its the same system STR are trying to get to work for them.

The lower pic is the systtem used by Ferarri, Williams and Red Bull, its the more expencive system to develop, but alsothe most effective and easiest to attach the air flow back onto the wing. It is also the one that has less drag taken off now that Renault have developed the cheapest system to take off the maximum ammount of drag.

Maybes McLaren want more drag to come off now, so they can have more straight line speed and more downforce in the highspeed corners.

I just dont know where to go on this one... Have McLaren now lost the F-Duct as their main advantage???

dont be ridiculous, they've obviously seen an improvment from this new f-duct version. and its certinly not the reason they struggled in the wet.
the car looks awkward to drive, the wings are all great and fancy, but the basic body of the car is just fundamently wrong when compared to the bulls and ferrari.
hamiltons brilliance is masking the real diffrence IMO.

[Pierce89]

At the beginning of the season alot of Macca fans were saying this design philosophy had much more development potential then the Ferrari design concept and especially the Red Bull scince it was JUST A DEVELOPMENT OF THE RB5. Maybe Macca have lost their supposed deveopment advantage(many updates haven't worked or have taken along time to work)

[Pierce89]

Nobody here?

After the race, one question bothers me most: Where did McLaren lost their wet-weather performance ? In China they were superior in wet, and since then it was evident that they almost never lack front grip in wet conditions. Their front end was always very strong all year, especially in wet. So the question is : was it a setup problem, or the other teams jumped them over so much since then ? It was strange to see that LH can't attack or even defense properly.

EDIT : Maybe they concentrated so much on rear downforce (EBD,diffusor,new rear wing) that the front DF is not enough now to balance it out ?

Lewis has complained of understeer the entire season.