Korean GP 2010 - Yeongam

[WhiteBlue]

Guys, I'm asking myself why we are loosing the perspective here. The thing that happened in the race was a complete right bank engine failure which happened out of the blue according to Red Bull at 1600 km and in the third race. Some people seem to think that it was the second race and at 1100 km. Fact is that it was the first engine failure of a Renault 2010 engine in a Red Bull in a race. Another fact is that Renault cannot say anything about this engine failure beyond the known data. So why are we not taking this at face value for an engine failure of unknown reason? Why are we having this discussion of driver influence here in the first place?

Probably because some people claim that Sebastian Vettel destroyed that engine by his driving style. There is no reason to assume that Vettel did something wrong. He is an experienced race driver who wants to win races. So he drives the car as hard as it is necessary to win races. He took the last laps of the Japanese race slow and left the fastest lap to Webber. He also held back with laps in FP1/2/3 in Korea. All this shows that he manages his engine stress carefully.

If some people want to discuss driver influence on F1 race engine life I suggest to open a dedicated thread about that. I'm a bit tired of reading these off topic posts here in the Korean race thread. I'm not saying this because I think that it is my prerogative to decide the race thread content. I'm just saying this as a user. Please let us get back to the real topic of this thread!

[WhiteBlue]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/webbe ... 840-1.html?

Gerhard Berger agrees with Nico Rosberg and Marc Surer that Webber did a poor job rolling across the track without braking and collecting Rosberg in the process.

He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall. He took out Rosberg, but that was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred it to be Alonso or Hamilton. He goes off and he knows it's over. In this moment you're frustrated and a thousand thoughts go through your head. It's very obvious, you can see his wheels are not locked up. Perhaps he had a brake problem, but I don't think so.

It is a logical explanation that he was expecting to hit Alonso or Hamilton who are both direct competitors for WDC this year. He was lucky that his compatriot Allan Jones was the driver steward and that the stewards did not start an investigation.

[djos]

Watch the Video of the crash again, the left hand side suspension (front and rear) and left rear wheel are all broken by Webbers collision with the wall leaving the tub on a soaking wet surface traveling at a fair speed.

It is simply not possible that the brakes would have any meaningful effect in these circumstances - Rosberg was simply bloody unlucky!

Here is proof Webber did have the brakes locked up after he hit the wall and they did precisely nothing:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtmHJEghlUk[/youtube]

You can actually see the right front wheel completely up in the air as he is sliding down the road just before Rosberg collects him at the 31 second mark.

[djos]

[...]

The only thing im defending here is the ridiculous accusation that Webber intentionally tried to take out another driver and was some how in control of his crash!

[mr moda]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/f1/webbe ... 840-1.html?

Gerhard Berger agrees with Nico Rosberg and Marc Surer that Webber did a poor job rolling across the track without braking and collecting Rosberg in the process.

He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall. He took out Rosberg, but that was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred it to be Alonso or Hamilton. He goes off and he knows it's over. In this moment you're frustrated and a thousand thoughts go through your head. It's very obvious, you can see his wheels are not locked up. Perhaps he had a brake problem, but I don't think so.

It is a logical explanation that he was expecting to hit Alonso or Hamilton who are both direct competitors for WDC this year. He was lucky that his compatriot Allan Jones was the driver steward and that the stewards did not start an investigation.

Once again WB you play the nationality card with the stewards. Please stop with your drivel and quoting sensationalist tit pieces from the press. Further more, in regards to your previous post about engine/driver management. You yourself were quite happy to get into the discussion and obviously as you now cannot contribute anything worthwhile you feel it is time that all stop that part of the thread. Once again please desist with your drivel. Thankyou.

[omar2726]

Once again WB you play the nationality card with the stewards. Please stop with your drivel and quoting sensationalist tit pieces from the press. Further more, in regards to your previous post about engine/driver management. You yourself were quite happy to get into the discussion and obviously as you now cannot contribute anything worthwhile you feel it is time that all stop that part of the thread. Once again please desist with your drivel. Thankyou.

That was a bit harsh wasn't it? As far as we are concerned, it's a legit news item, that is worthy of mention because of it's offensive and controversial nature. I don't remember personal opinions being banned anywhere in the forum rules.

Commenting on the subject, I think Rosberg was too emotional, and didn't think of the firestorm that would ignite from his tweets. He must be very angry after the race for him to say that.

Cheers

P.S. I am not insinuating that Webber really did not brake, I think the idea was crazy, because I don't think a driver such as Webber would be crazy enough to even think about that.

[WhiteBlue]

The onboard shows nothing of the rear wheels and the front wheels are almost obscured by dirt. Nevertheless I see wheels rotating. I repeat that the standard cam was showing much better views. The facts seem to be undisputed:

• the wreck could have been slowed down by application of the brakes
• brakes were not applied after the impact with the right hand barrier
• the accident was not investigated by the stewards although circumstances point towards an avoidable collision with Rosberg
• the driver in question and the driver steward were of the same nationality

[Mysticf1]

lol WB.

I most definitely dont agree with Gerhard's opinion of the incident...but on the bright side...its better than crashing into the side of people due to gross incompetence, no matter what comes of this years WDC fight, Vettel's image has been severely altered. The slow inconsistent Aussie, so ridiculously close to Vettels pace...does that reflect on Webber or Vettel??

Webber screwed up, all Australian and Webber fans have acknowledged that...to say he was aiming for title rivals after the incident, was aided by Alan Jones as steward after the fact, is inflammatory and pure speculation...people will strongly dissagree with that...deal with it.

Vettels championship hopes are almost gone...deal with it instead of a consistent hate campaign against Webber.

[mr moda]

Well, our Australian members seem to be up in arms that someone pointed Webber's less than stellar performance out to the public.....

Bullshit.
I can say that as I have seen where you yourself think it,s quite appropriate.
I,m not up in arms at all. Webber during the course of this season has put in some absolute woeful performances.
So once again please desist with your inane drivel.

[jamsbong]

It was very surprising for me to read the news that Burger accusing Webber for intentionally crashing into Alonso. I read the news from this website:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11010262921 ... tle-rivals

Anyway, after going through a few messages on this forum, I realise there is probably this or that... but nothing conclusive. First of all, the in-car video was not clear whether Webber did or did not brake. The telemetry would be a better way to understand the situation. So I can't see Burger or any of you upholding this claim.

Then again, Vettel was penalised in SPA despite he had no intention to crash into Button. So should Webber be penalised even if he has no intention to cause trouble? I don't think so, but I also disagree with Vettel's penalty.

Overall, Vettel's luck has not been on his side. Just like the bad days of Kimi or Montoya. All these drivers are talented and very fast but somehow some bad stuff would seal their fate.

[Giblet]

I wonder how much earlier vettel's motor would have exploded if he didn't get to leisurely circulate behind the safety car for so long.

[Just_a_fan]

He hit the wall and failed to keep applying the brakes after his crash. His car rolled unbraked down the sloping track to the other side. He failed to take an action which might have avoided the following collision with Rosbergs car.

You'll be able to provide the telemetry to prove he didn't press the brake pedal, will you?

As an aside, I think the impact with the wall damaged front and rear corners. Both the front and rear brake circuits may have been damaged such that applying the pedal just pumped brake fluid out and he was thus unable to slow the car. I have no idea if this is the case, of course, but it is another little issue that might explain things.

[xpensive]

@ ringo; Regardless of Wøhler- or Soderberg diagrams, you are still dealing with probabilities and bell-curves, all dependent on a certain load-estimation.

Tribology is most interesting and covers so much more than a VI-diagram actually, you should try and read a book on the subject, where I could recommend a few if you wish.

[timd]

This was a silppery track and it was wet. If you have every driven / spun on a slippery track (rockinham can feel frictionless) then you would understand just how little grip there can be and how this can happen. It can be far worse than any road you have driven on when wet.

[928S]

One extra detail, in Bahrain, I heard it was a spark plug failure on Vettel's car, only after reading on this site it was a header did I learn that. Are we sure about this fact? If it was the spark plug it could have been a fault with the plug, just as possible and probably more likely, it may have had its electrode burnt off by lean running. Now the engine management system they run allows the team to run different maps on different cylinders, they won't be much different but the could be a bit different.

In Nascar for an example on the intake side the cams are ground differently depending on which cylinder they feed. They work this out through pressure sensors in the chamber. Sometimes there may be an airbox issue with air flow in F1 engines, this was the case back in 2003 with Renault. It is called acoustic behavour.

What I am getting at it is not simple and again local conditions can affect things, hot outside temps and then running a lean condition maybe for an excessively long time due to excessive fuel use, remember the first race of the year and know this, one team didn't have a fuel tank big enough to complete the race.

There is also that "special" mode used in qualifying where by they burn fuel in the exhaust to continue to create with the diffuser extra downforce with a trailing throttle. Is there an extra use of this mode going on?

A comment also I think worth making is that the team both chassis and engine are unlikely to say that one driver is damaging the equipment unless there is a falling out just like there was with Williams and BMW where they started to publicly trash eachother.

Also I would like to say thank you to the various posters that have thanked me for posting.