Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[MikeFromCanada]

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but after the race, during the BBC F1 Forum, Jenson said he was running an experimental part on his car which Lewis was not, and that he thinks that this caused his lack of DF.

Does anyone know what this part was?

To bring this back up, I saw on James Allen's blog he claimed the team confirmed it was a "small detail change in the braking system".

Still looking for more info on this.

[ringo]

A small detail change dropped him by 4 seconds.
Mclaren needs Heiki back in the car. He was faster than Button by far!
They are going to need all the speed they can get with the son of silver donkey, or should i say the silver mule. It's not on prancing horse or red bull levels.

Button needs to go. He is making Mclaren cars look bad. He complains a lot and is actually influencing the F1 public to look at the car as a problem and not the driver. As if he is better than the car. I don't think Ron would be pleased with all the complaints about the Mp4. Button is the first driver to blame the car in such detail.

The car's wet weather performance is now 3rd best. It was 4rth best in Korea becuase Mercedes changed the car to a wet setup during the red flag, since the cars were out of parc ferme. This brought them better brake feel to take advantage of the low grip.

Mclaren's diffuser is just too open. It cannot get a "grip" on the air. It's like an axial compressor vs a centrifugal. The axial is more efficient, but it stalls easily becuase of how the blades interact with the air.
Their diffuser may be very efficient, too efficient. They need to back of some of that peak efficiency and get more surface area in so it can "grip" the air better.

[rfs]

A small detail change dropped him by 4 seconds.
Mclaren needs Heiki back in the car. He was faster than Button by far!
They are going to need all the speed they can get with the son of silver donkey, or should i say the silver mule. It's not on prancing horse or red bull levels.

Button needs to go. He is making Mclaren cars look bad. He complains a lot and is actually influencing the F1 public to look at the car as a problem and not the driver. As if he is better than the car. I don't think Ron would be pleased with all the complaints about the Mp4. Button is the first driver to blame the car in such detail.

Heikki and a few other guys might be faster than Button but he makes very few mistakes and brings alot of points home. I see him staying there for three more years at least. However the fact that he and Hamilton get equal treatment whilst having such different driving styles might not be good for their development program in the long run.

[MikeFromCanada]

Although I do agree with rfs for the most part, I agree when Ringo says that Button complains alot about the car. This isn't new, though. After his string of 6 wins in 7 races, JB was complaining left right and centre about the Brawn car and it's apparent lack of grip.

I do think he's a solid driver, and I do feel that on his day when he's feeling one with the car, he is capable to win. However, when it is not his day, he's the loduest voice in the F1 paddock. His intentions may be to motivate, but at some point constant criticism surely would leave a negative taste in McLaren's mouths, both in management and the engineer/techs working on hs car.

This is all happening in sharp contrast to Lewis'comments on the car, saying many times this car is the best car he's driven in F1. That's saying alot considering he drove arguably one of, if not the most sophisticated engineered cars in F1 history.

[ringo]

This championship seems to be aimed at promoting the mp4 12c, ie if Mclaren win the constructors or driver's championship.
Button is solid, but he's too sensitive. Heiki was less sensitive though he had less experience.
One thing though, you never heard a word out of Heiki blaming the car.
Jenson constantly uses the car to hide his relative skill and speed deficit to Hamilton. This could have a negative impact on development going forward. Since he has to be pleased 100% to do well.
Going to brazil the car will need raw performance, with no compromises for driver comfort. It should be pushed to the limit with Lewis' skill, not style in mind.
Drivability is out the window now with the car 0.5s down on the redbull. When you ditch drivability for raw performance you end up with a car like the mp4 24 in singapore last year. It goes from a dog to an winning car but only in the right hands.

It's about time mclaren slap that KERS unit under the hood as well. no one will know if they put a kick down switch where the old fduct knee hole used to be.

[spinmastermic]

JB had no brakes. They're quite important on a fast car. Look at what happened to Sutil.

[ringo]

he had no brakes?
That's the exact same thing i'm talking about
All his excuses reflect poorly on the car. First he gets a new suspension part near the brakes and then he has none.

The car was ok, i can even bet Hamilton uses the very same part in the next race.

Ron denis better get Jenson out before he claims he had no car.

He never complained about brakes, he complained about grip, which everyone has to deal with. His car was exactly the same as Lewis' bar the little brake part; which by no means should cause him to spin the car in a section where brakes aren't used.
The Mp4 is not as bad as Jenson makes it look.

A mclaren coming 12th behind a toro rosso,.... in the wet?
Who'd of thunk it?

[Halgovern]

It's about time mclaren slap that KERS unit under the hood as well. no one will know if they put a kick down switch where the old fduct knee hole used to be.

very nice, maybe THIS the experimental part in the braking system

[i70q7m7ghw]

JB and LH have been the best driver line up for years. Both have been right in the hunt for the championship, the car just isn't fast enough this year. McLaren are looking like a serious threat in the constructors championship, although again I think they will struggle to steal it. Alonso & Lewis was probably a better line up for McLaren but as we all know it just didn't work. Jenson has integrated in to the team quite nicely and he's exactly what McLaren need to win championships. Lewis's raw speed and Jenson's level head are the perfect balance.

As for Korea. Jenson was running experimental parts, a risk he had to take since the car isn't fast enough to win championships and they desperately need to do something about it. Coming third behind the Red Bulls, or second behind Alonso just isn't going to cut it anymore. Lewis will not win the championship by just finishing behind the other teams, he knows that which is why he's been taking risky moves that haven't paid off. Button has been doing the same but with car setup and strategy. The f-duct in Monza that did pay off, the tyre strategy in Suzuka that didn't pay off and the new parts in Korea that didn't pay off. Both drivers are taking a different approach to the championship and are taking risks because the car simply isn't fast enough.

Heiki had a championship winning car in 2008 and he struggled to squeeze out his one and only F1 victory. That speaks volumes in my opinion. Especially when Jenson turned up this year and takes 2 victories early in the season and has been in the hunt for the title all year running.

The simple fact for McLaren this year is that the car isn't fast enough. They've benefitted from experience and taken points off their rivals, but ultimately they are the third fastest team and have been for most of the year.

Go watch football Ringo, you clearly haven't been watching F1 properly.

[forty-two]

JB and LH have been the best driver line up for years. Both have been right in the hunt for the championship, the car just isn't fast enough this year. McLaren are looking like a serious threat in the constructors championship, although again I think they will struggle to steal it. Alonso & Lewis was probably a better line up for McLaren but as we all know it just didn't work. Jenson has integrated in to the team quite nicely and he's exactly what McLaren need to win championships. Lewis's raw speed and Jenson's level head are the perfect balance.

As for Korea. Jenson was running experimental parts, a risk he had to take since the car isn't fast enough to win championships and they desperately need to do something about it. Coming third behind the Red Bulls, or second behind Alonso just isn't going to cut it anymore. Lewis will not win the championship by just finishing behind the other teams, he knows that which is why he's been taking risky moves that haven't paid off. Button has been doing the same but with car setup and strategy. The f-duct in Monza that did pay off, the tyre strategy in Suzuka that didn't pay off and the new parts in Korea that didn't pay off. Both drivers are taking a different approach to the championship and are taking risks because the car simply isn't fast enough.

Heiki had a championship winning car in 2008 and he struggled to squeeze out his one and only F1 victory. That speaks volumes in my opinion. Especially when Jenson turned up this year and takes 2 victories early in the season and has been in the hunt for the title all year running.

The simple fact for McLaren this year is that the car isn't fast enough. They've benefitted from experience and taken points off their rivals, but ultimately they are the third fastest team and have been for most of the year.

Go watch football Ringo, you clearly haven't been watching F1 properly.

Apart from the final sentence in the above, I agree 100% with Diesel's comments.

Button is only a few points shy of Hamilton in the WDC standings, despite having had at least two DNFs which were nothing to do with him.

I think the pairing of LH and JB at McLaren is their best in years and I for one want to see it continue for many years to come. They're both bringing their respective talents to the team and scooping up WCC points as they go.

[spinmastermic]

After the race he said the front brakes locked up at every corner. I'd believe him after what he did in Hungary 06.

[ell66]

JB and LH have been the best driver line up for years. Both have been right in the hunt for the championship, the car just isn't fast enough this year. McLaren are looking like a serious threat in the constructors championship, although again I think they will struggle to steal it. Alonso & Lewis was probably a better line up for McLaren but as we all know it just didn't work. Jenson has integrated in to the team quite nicely and he's exactly what McLaren need to win championships. Lewis's raw speed and Jenson's level head are the perfect balance.

As for Korea. Jenson was running experimental parts, a risk he had to take since the car isn't fast enough to win championships and they desperately need to do something about it. Coming third behind the Red Bulls, or second behind Alonso just isn't going to cut it anymore. Lewis will not win the championship by just finishing behind the other teams, he knows that which is why he's been taking risky moves that haven't paid off. Button has been doing the same but with car setup and strategy. The f-duct in Monza that did pay off, the tyre strategy in Suzuka that didn't pay off and the new parts in Korea that didn't pay off. Both drivers are taking a different approach to the championship and are taking risks because the car simply isn't fast enough.

Heiki had a championship winning car in 2008 and he struggled to squeeze out his one and only F1 victory. That speaks volumes in my opinion. Especially when Jenson turned up this year and takes 2 victories early in the season and has been in the hunt for the title all year running.

The simple fact for McLaren this year is that the car isn't fast enough. They've benefitted from experience and taken points off their rivals, but ultimately they are the third fastest team and have been for most of the year.

Go watch football Ringo, you clearly haven't been watching F1 properly.

Apart from the final sentence in the above, I agree 100% with Diesel's comments.

Button is only a few points shy of Hamilton in the WDC standings, despite having had at least two DNFs which were nothing to do with him.

I think the pairing of LH and JB at McLaren is their best in years and I for one want to see it continue for many years to come. They're both bringing their respective talents to the team and scooping up WCC points as they go.

hes 20 points behind despite lewis having had 4 dnfs, of which only 1 was his fault.
when jenson retired in monaco, he was running 11th for gods sake, hardly missing out was he?
the car is solidly 3rd best sometimes 2nd at circuits like spa.
jenson just isnt fast enough pure and simple. i was impressed by his win in china, but australia was complete luck im afraid.

but back on topic, how substantial are the proposed updates for brazil?

[raymondu999]

Does anyone feel, though, that the Senna-Prost comparison is slightly flattering?

[ringo]

I'm not drinking the KoolAid, Jenson had the whole year to challenge and he is yet to make his presence felt as the reigning WDC. His 2 wins are basically a lucky Korea race clone. He is yet to challenge for a win.
The best driver pairing this year is Webber and Vettel, or Barichello Hulkenberg.
Jenson is too slow, and has us looking at the car for problems, when in fact he's the one with problems every race.
The suspension part on the car was not killing his brakes. Hamilton had the same braking issue as well. I don't believe the part was a rotor or any part having to do with the actual braking. It may have well been a brake duct or caliper cooling duct; some aero part.
And in Korean race conditions, it may amount to nothing in terms of extra cooling.

He simply is not fast enough to keep up with the top 4. The car is slower than the redbull yes. But it can still get podiums as we can see by Hamilton's performance.
qualified 3rd in Suzuka, podium in Korea, on the way to a podium in Singapore.
It's a good reliable race car that can pick up podiums if things go right.

Jenson could have easily had zero wins this year if the luck shifted ever so slightly. Korea made this pretty clear. You can't gamble on parts and pitstops to try and catalyze a race. Speed is what counts overall. We've seen this with Alonso, Vettel, Webber and Hamilton. When you have raw speed you don't have to depend on luck or strategy. Those things are secondary.

It's clear he's not faster than Heiki, and he is fortunate to have a better car to drive than what heiki had in his 2 years at Mclaren. Heiki may well return and have much improved race craft which he earned in Lotus.
The Mp4 25 is not meant to be trundling around behind saubers and Torro Rosos. Without even attempting an overtake. As bad as heiki was in the first 15 laps of a race, he'd be on the pace and overtaking soon after.
I'm not ignoring Button's season though, he did well to stay in the shadow of the championship, but he's been soundly beaten by his teammate the whole year, in a car that was pretty much neutral and not exactly to Hamilton's liking in some instances.

[raymondu999]

I seem to recall Heikki overtaking Rubens in Turkey too. Which as we know was an absolute monster in Turkey. Jenson could win by 22 seconds in front of the two Bulls. It'd be funny if Heikki came back to McLaren ousting Jenson next year lol, and turn out to be a real star after having developed at Lotus, and a regular race winner. LOL. But I think we're more likely to see Vettel there rather than Heikki.