Button signs for Mclaren

[Miguel]

don't thing anyone would really doubt that hamilton is comfortably the fastest driver in F1 , in fact he is the fastest driver since senna on whom he models himself ; but don't forget he is a relative novice, he has less experience than vettel if I remember correctly

Hamilton does have more experience than Vettel, about 12 GP's more if my memory serves. He also has F3 and GP2 experience that Vettel lacks. And I don't know how can you be so sure of Hamilton being comfortably the fastest driver. For a start, he's 1-3 against Button in qualy.

I hear people say button is lucky and then watch alonso catch 2 safety cars today without which he would have been 14th, not 4th ...that's skill , they say ...well I like a good laugh , wonder if massa laughed when he got pushed off the track

button would have been world champion a couple of times before if he had been willing to pay flavio 20% to manage him , but he wasn't and lost his seat to lucky who did ... with results we all know when renault had special tyres, special electronics , and special suspension

Two things: first of all, the first safety car actually hindered Alonso considerably. Had it not been deployed, he would have lost less positions with the stop & go. It's like his pitstop for fuel last year. The field spread alone would have helped him. Furthermore, fewer people would have changed to inters, and it's less likely he would have had to switch tyres twice.

Regarding Button, Flavio and your apparent sour grapes, you should remember that Button was handily beaten by Fisichella in 2001 and then was more or less Trulli's equal in 2002. By that time, Alonso was a tester at Renault, so people other than Briatore surely had info on which driver they preferred.

[PlatinumZealot]

Miguel, you can only say Button is faster in Qualifying if you were not paying attention to the timings A real technical person will understand why Button is 3-1 in qualifying and It's not because of speed.

[Miguel]

Miguel, you can only say Button is faster in Qualifying if you were not paying attention to the timings A real technical person will understand why Button is 3-1 in qualifying and It's not because of speed.

Well, yeah, but then some of the guys that claim that Hamilton is behind due to other factors go on and state that Massa is quicker than Alonso because he's behind in the race, disregarding everything else. I mean, even Brundle did that today during the broadcast, even though they ended up separated by 40+ seconds.

And, what the heck, it's fun to play the politician and twist the facts to suit your point.

[lebesset]

I was going to answer miguel , but once I saw san sebastian I realised you were only joking
is that nice basement restaurant where they serve wine in pint glasses still there?

and I knew briatore needed the 20% to pay for his yacht

[marcush.]

with hindsight,
Button did a well executed move at the right time as he knew or simply he was lucky.

with Merc now really struggling with the car in the same ways as Brawn GP struglled to make their car work in the second half of the season,I slowly understand what
JB achieved last year.
He grabbed a half chance and managed to form it into a world championship.the car was blindingly fast out of the box but looking back I doubt Brawns boys really fully understood why ,and that is the reason why they were unable to conserve this form into 2010.
Jenson came to Macs fully aware that he cannot beat Lewis on outright speed ,but he can in terms of racecraft .Actually the new regs play even more into his hands as I already expected he seems to be the one who is just fast enough and does the best calls when it really is crunch time ...and he makes Lewis look a bit Villeneuve ,blindingly fast yes but at times not really on top of the real story.

[PlatinumZealot]

Button seems to have a live up-link to one of the NASA satellites.

[avatar]

personally I am not much for nicknames , but how about the Frome Flyer ?
no , maybe not

Pub/Premier Inn.
Jenson Avenue,
Frome

[audifan]

doesn't look like him to me

[ringo]

I don't consider what Button does race craft. I think it's more race tactics.
I am a fan but a bigger Hamilton fan, i never really fancied button, but he gets my respect for his wisdom.
People who say Hamilton makes stupid choices are looking at it the wrong way, i think Button is above others in terms of overview of the race.
He has a nice start to the championship, but i think things are going to get a little tougher for him as races become more stable in terms of weather, and as Hamilton's engineer gets better at making decisions.
Smooth driving is a non factor to me, speed is all that counts. The tyre saving thing is a myth as shown by Bridgestone. Button has had a pretty smooth race upfront out of battles and can be a lot easier on the tyres. Hamilton now is just as good on his tyres, but he has to fight with others, most of the time going off line or cutting in, wearing the fronts.
He did well to hold on to Jenson. Even when Jenson had no battling to do his tyres were shot after he locked up, showing that locking up and other maneuvers commonly used in overtaking, is what gives the impression one driver burns through tyres.
His times instantly increased as soon as the tyres got that scrubbing.

The championship is still close, and for Lewis to be 11 points adrift is not bad, looking at the circumstances. All other drivers who fall back as much as he did on strategy and quali are not so fortunate in terms of how they finish the race.

One other thing i notice about button is that, though slower than Lewis, he gets his fast laps out of qualifying much earlier than Lewis. Showing he is less cautious and a little more confident.
Lewis may take 2 laps to get in his quickest, where as Button first lap is very close to his second.
All in all an interesting driver pairing, but i still see Lewis moving off with this one this year. He is learning still; not about the physical parts of racing or the rules, but about the tactical part.
I like how Button frankly said speed is not everything, shows that he is willing to help Lewis learn from his 10 years of driving.

[marcush.]

I don't consider what Button does race craft. I think it's more race tactics.
I am a fan but a bigger Hamilton fan, i never really fancied button, but he gets my respect for his wisdom.
People who say Hamilton makes stupid choices are looking at it the wrong way, i think Button is above others in terms of overview of the race.
He has a nice start to the championship, but i think things are going to get a little tougher for him as races become more stable in terms of weather, and as Hamilton's engineer gets better at making decisions.
Smooth driving is a non factor to me, speed is all that counts. The tyre saving thing is a myth as shown by Bridgestone. Button has had a pretty smooth race upfront out of battles and can be a lot easier on the tyres. Hamilton now is just as good on his tyres, but he has to fight with others, most of the time going off line or cutting in, wearing the fronts.
He did well to hold on to Jenson. Even when Jenson had no battling to do his tyres were shot after he locked up, showing that locking up and other maneuvers commonly used in overtaking, is what gives the impression one driver burns through tyres.
His times instantly increased as soon as the tyres got that scrubbing.

The championship is still close, and for Lewis to be 11 points adrift is not bad, looking at the circumstances. All other drivers who fall back as much as he did on strategy and quali are not so fortunate in terms of how they finish the race.

One other thing i notice about button is that, though slower than Lewis, he gets his fast laps out of qualifying much earlier than Lewis. Showing he is less cautious and a little more confident.
Lewis may take 2 laps to get in his quickest, where as Button first lap is very close to his second.
All in all an interesting driver pairing, but i still see Lewis moving off with this one this year. He is learning still; not about the physical parts of racing or the rules, but about the tactical part.
I like how Button frankly said speed is not everything, shows that he is willing to help Lewis learn from his 10 years of driving.

reading a race and bringing yourself into the position to be able to win ,making the big points in the match is racecraft ,no doubt about it.
also Button does indeed deliver always when it comes to overtaking ,he has not taken prisoners with rosberg...he grabbed the chance Nico offered him and did not need special invitations.
No question Lewis does beautiful manouvres on track and he does shine.But who could he possibly blame today for not coming in in front of Button but his own unability to control himself when it is not advised to push?
to talk Button down ,calling this just tactics is not doing him justice I think .But i could as well be completely wrong and it is pure luck we have seen ..

[lebesset]

well ringo , all I can say is that on that basis you wouldn't have fancied fangio , who had the same approach as button
of course he was only champion 5 times , and runner up twice in 9 years

[Just_a_fan]

I reckon Lewis is the quicker driver but Jenson the calmer one. And calmness pays in give-and-take races such as those we've had so far this year. I still think that once we get to some 'boring' races in the mid-season that Lewis will show up Jenson's relative lack of pace just as so far Jenson has shown up Lewis's lack of insight.

Time favours Lewis too - he can learn the insight bit; very difficult to teach ultimate speed.

[ringo]

well ringo , all I can say is that on that basis you wouldn't have fancied fangio , who had the same approach as button
of course he was only champion 5 times , and runner up twice in 9 years

Maybe i wouldn't. Respect yes, but not on top of my top of the top list. Fangio definitely top 4 to me though, but i haven't seen any of his full races.

Button is good, but i think craft is something separate from tactics. Tactics best describes what Button is doing, and is a more accurate word than craft. Craft to me is more actionable, more of what you see the driver doing on the track.

craft:

1. deviousness: skill in trickery or deceiving others

2. skilled profession or activity: a profession or activity that requires skill and training

3. skill: skill in making or doing things, especially by hand

I don't think button is devious. Neither am i seeing him in a class by his own on skill.

tactics:

1. military direction of forces in battle: the science of organizing and maneuvering forces in battle to achieve a limited or immediate aim
2. finding means to end: the art of finding and implementing means to achieve particular immediate or short-term aims

These 2 describe him perfectly, especially #2. I can see him in a class by himself on tactics. And i am not joining the button is the most complete band wagon, i still think he will find things tougher. just got to give him credit where it is due.

Tactics is obviously decision based, which is what Button is showing now. His decision more than his craft was what gave him this win.
If we look at the race position chart, Button has crossed one driver, Rosberg. Showing that it was tactics and not craft that was the deciding factor. One swift move and the race was done. I rember saying Button won this, as soon as i saw him stay out.

Lucky is no longer what i say button is. The man is lucky his plan worked, but it's not luck because he challenged his own luck.
Good oversight good decision, but more races and tougher battles ahead.

[lebesset]

lucky escape for button , for sure people would be saying told you so if it had been him struggling at mercedes instead of michael

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83157

and ...fastest and most naturally talented driver in F1 .... , only fanboys could disagree with that assessment of hamilton !

[ringo]

I think it's appropriate we bring this thread forward instead of discussing the mclaren drivers in the Mp4 25 thread.
The season is almost through and we can reflect on the performance of both drivers and also look back at what we expected at the time this thread was last visited.

To pick up where i left of in the car thread; i was arguing that the car was not as bad as Button made it out to be, and it is his adaptability that exacerbated how he performed in the car.
When i said Heiki could have done better in the 25 because the 23 and 24 weren't as good, i wasn't contradicting myself based on both driver's relative performance to Hamilton, to judge how good the car is.

Button has done an ok job this year, but i believe other drivers out there could have done a similar or slightly better job in the last 3/4 of the season. Drivers such as Glock, Kubica, Rosberg, not to mention Kimi.
I am not bashing him, but i think it's fair to put all drivers; better yet WDC under the microscope.