Button signs for Mclaren

[timbo]

When i said Heiki could have done better in the 25 because the 23 and 24 weren't as good, i wasn't contradicting myself based on both driver's relative performance to Hamilton, to judge how good the car is.

23 weren't as good?
How's that?
And Heikki, with all due respect, was never in contention for the title.

[ringo]

The 23 was good, very good. But i don't think it was as drivable as the 25.
The rb6 and F10 are making the 25 look ordinary, but i think Ron Denis made a good point when he said the 25 was a strong race car.

We may not know if the 25 would have suited Heiki better than the previous 2 cars.

Don't get me wrong about Button, he had a good run this season, collecting good points. My only issue is his qualifying and sensitivity to the car. He's good when the car is very good.

Heiki on the other hand had no issues in qualifying really, and wasn't neccessarily sensitive. What i mean by sensitive is that his performance doesn't degrade between 2 race weekends because the car feels a little weird one weekend.

[ringo]

Button is a good signing, but he requires a lot of extra attention.
I think Mclaren needs 2 top drivers if they really want to challenge for constructors or even use one driver to support the other.
When you have a driver that is good once in a blue moon, it doesn't help that the other top drivers in the other teams are performing consistently over the season.
Going into the last 2 races, i'd like to imagine Button can get on the second row and maybe out qualify Alonso or Massa, however it's not likely unless the 25 is the best car on the day.
With heiki there was a stronger chance he would out qualify a top driver or top car.

Mclaren find themselves in the same situation that they had after Alonso left. One top driver with a teammate that's not up front where they need him to be at the end of the season.

[raymondu999]

I think the only thing Button over Heikki has brought to his McLaren career is his experience and maturity.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Pasted from other thread:-

It's clear he's not faster than Heiki, and he is fortunate to have a better car to drive than what heiki had in his 2 years at Mclaren. Heiki may well return and have much improved race craft which he earned in Lotus.
The Mp4 25 is not meant to be trundling around behind saubers and Torro Rosos. Without even attempting an overtake. As bad as heiki was in the first 15 laps of a race, he'd be on the pace and overtaking soon after.
I'm not ignoring Button's season though, he did well to stay in the shadow of the championship, but he's been soundly beaten by his teammate the whole year, in a car that was pretty much neutral and not exactly to Hamilton's liking in some instances.

Wow. Check out the contradiction. Your saying Button isn't allowed to blame the car and it's actually all his fault. Then you defend Kovalainen by saying the car was the reason he was only able to collect half as many points as Lewis in 2 seasons, AND Lewis won the championship in the 2008 McLaren, how was that car not good enough for Kovalainen?

You said:

It's clear he's not faster than Heiki, and he is fortunate to have a better car to drive than what heiki had in his 2 years at Mclaren.

The 2008 McLaren won the championship.

Mclaren find themselves in the same situation that they had after Alonso left. One top driver with a teammate that's not up front where they need him to be at the end of the season.

Based on last years point's system Button is only 8 points or so behind *Hamilton (corrected). This year's points system is quite deceptive. Button has been very strong this year and McLaren are really showing they have the strongest driver lineup out of the top teams. Compare them to Ferrari, hey are leading the drivers championship but they are only 3rd in the constructors.

[zeph]

Diesel, why should one have to bother with something as insubstantial and arbitrary as the truth when faced with the monumental task of forming an opinion?

[Richard]

facts never seem to survive in a fanboi thread like this.

[ringo]

So it's a fan boy thread now?
What about the anyone but Alonso thread? Not much Alonso fans on site so he can be scrutinized i see.

Whenever there is a discussion on a topic that is a little cringing for a driver becuase it's telling the truth, it's pushed off as a fanboi thread.

The season has come to a near conclusion, and it is appropriate that these threads made at the beginning be revisited to add some closure.
It comes across as trolling when every opinion someone disagrees with is labeled as fanboi rhetoric. Everyone is free to argue a point they disagree with, no need for the fanboi labeling.

I'm discussing the signing of Button, and if it made a considerable impact after Heiki left; i'm not talking about Hamilton. Surely we can discuss a British driver like we discuss the Spanish, Brazilian and German drivers?

[ringo]

Based on last years point's system Button is only 8 points or so behind the championship leader. This year's points system is quite deceptive. Button has been very strong this year and McLaren are really showing they have the strongest driver lineup out of the top teams. Compare them to Ferrari, hey are leading the drivers championship but they are only 3rd in the constructors.

I'm not comparing to Hamilton. I'm looking on Button's ability to challenge the front runners. Hamilton crashing out 4 times added to mechanical issues is the reason why Button is trailing by only 20 points. You can't use lewis' badluck to justify Button never being able to even get a peek at defending his tittle.

Mclaren's driver line up is not the strongest. Ferrari has a better line up.
They have a battered and bruised Massa and he is still able to lead Alonso and give him support as we saw in Germany. What's more Massa is still able to go into Brazil and Blitz it.
In fact as mediocre as Massa has been this year, he presents a higher probability of capturing the constructors in these last 2 races than Button. That's simply becuase he is a faster driver.
At the moment Mclaren can't even tell Button to support Hamilton in the races. It's not likely he'll be up front. All they can do is pretend he still has a chance to boost his confidence to get him as far up as posible. They know he's not getting any where near his teammate, but they play to his ego anyway.

I'd give Button one more year in hopes that the 26 is superior to the other cars and the pirellis give him the grip he so frequently complains about.
Then Mclaren can look to Vettel or Glock for 2012.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Based on last years point's system Button is only 8 points or so behind the championship leader. This year's points system is quite deceptive. Button has been very strong this year and McLaren are really showing they have the strongest driver lineup out of the top teams. Compare them to Ferrari, hey are leading the drivers championship but they are only 3rd in the constructors.

I'm not comparing to Hamilton. I'm looking on Button's ability to challenge the front runners. Hamilton crashing out 4 times added to mechanical issues is the reason why Button is trailing by only 20 points. You can't use lewis' badluck to justify Button never being able to even get a peek at defending his tittle.

Mclaren's driver line up is not the strongest. Ferrari has a better line up.
They have a battered and bruised Massa and he is still able to lead Alonso and give him support as we saw in Germany. What's more Massa is still able to go into Brazil and Blitz it.
In fact as mediocre as Massa has been this year, he presents a higher probability of capturing the constructors in these last 2 races than Button. That's simply becuase he is a faster driver.
At the moment Mclaren can't even tell Button to support Hamilton in the races. It's not likely he'll be up front. All they can do is pretend he still has a chance to boost his confidence to get him as far up as posible. They know he's not getting any where near his teammate, but they play to his ego anyway.

I'd give Button one more year in hopes that the 26 is superior to the other cars and the pirellis give him the grip he so frequently complains about.
Then Mclaren can look to Vettel or Glock for 2012.

Everything you are saying seems to be based around Korea. 12th is Jenson's worst finish of the year, exlcuding Korea he has scored in every race he has finished. He's retired from 2 races through no fault of his own, you seem to forget these? Lewis only has himself to blame for his crashes.

http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2010/6.html

You can only compare a driver to his team mate, everybody knows this. Say what you like about Massa, results are all that matter and he hasn't been able to get them this year, it doesn't matter how fast he is in your imagination. Massa has been comprehensively blown away by Alonso this year, and I don't think he's ever going to recover from it.

Button has been a good match for Hamilton this year. Lewis has been stronger this year, but we all know he's a great driver. Simple fact is the gap between Lewis & Jenson has not been as big as alot of people thought it was going to be. You can't say it's only because Lewis crashed out when the crashes were his own fault.

[Richard]

Ringo - I see signs of fanboi-ism when the argument appears to be between posters rather than an objective look at the facts. When people take up entrenched positions they are then unable to have an objective discussion.

For the record, yes Button appears to be closer to his team mate at McLaren than Heiki was. That’s the only possible benchmark. Whether it is because Button is a faster driver (or because Lewis is worse) is impossible to prove because so much comes down to strategy and team dynamics.

Edit to add ....

If someone wants to take this topic seriously then they should compare the stats. Which of the two posted the faster laps in a race relative to Lewis, what about positons relative to Lewis at the end of race & quali etc...

Off the top of my head, I recall Button has posted some fastest laps during races, how many has he posted this season compared to Lewis. Then do the same exercise for Hieki.

[Richard]

Sorry to come back to this, but here are some facts about Button v Massa performance this year ...

Button has 6 podiums to Massa's 4
Button has 2 wins to Massa's 0
Button has 183 points to Massa's 143

[zeph]

2008
Hamilton: 98 pnt - 5 wins - 4 x 0 pnt (1 DNF)
Kovalainen: 53 pnt - 1 win - 6 x 0 pnt (3 DNF)

2009
Hamilton: 49 pnt - 2 wins - 7 x 0 pnt (2 DNF / 1 DSQ)
Kovalainen: 22 pnt - 0 wins - 10 x 0 pnt (5 DNF)

I think McLaren was right to let Kovalainen go. Button is a much more consistent driver and points-grabber than Kovalainen was.

[ringo]

Sorry to come back to this, but here are some facts about Button v Massa performance this year ...

Button has 6 podiums to Massa's 4
Button has 2 wins to Massa's 0
Button has 183 points to Massa's 143

Massa should have 1 win. One he fought for in dry conditions without any gambles.
Keep in mind Massa is recovering from 2009 accident as well.
Don't get me wrong Button is not bad, and i'm not using Korea to blanket his season,but there is more to be desired in his ability to go for the best result.

The 2 wins were pretty lucky, Islamatron (haven't seen him around in a while)said that that's all he's getting for the season, it turned out to be true.
He hasn't brought himself in to the fray after that, bar turkey. The signing was good choice over continuing Heiki, but it didn't yield the theoretical results we were all hoping for; a full on run for the constructors.
Remember our discussion on tyre nursing and strategy? And if one crashes out the other will pick up the pieces? We've seen a Button that is very good when the car is perfect, but is not bothered to push when there is a slight issue with the car, and will burn through tyres compromising his race forcing him to gamble. Too many issues and complaints that other drivers don't seem to be having.

Races like; hungary, singapore, suzuka, korea, silverstone qualy (race was ok),
malaysia, spain. Too many lukewarm efforts from the champion. Maybe that's why i'm mentioning Massa who has worse stats this year. Massa is a fighter and can realistically be in a position to help if needs be, he doesn't settle for points.

Maybe i'm still shocked from the Korean race, and being too critical, but seeing the third best car trundling around at the back,not trying to overtake, then seeing Buemi and Sutil trying their best to make moves to get points says something about the attitude Button has displayed this year.

A signing of the likes of Kubica, Glock, Heidfeld may have yielded some interesting results; maybe with a little more fire and less complaining. There are some good drivers out there in midfield cars that could get the job done just as well or better for Mclaren.

[ringo]

2008
Hamilton: 98 pnt - 5 wins - 4 x 0 pnt (1 DNF)
Kovalainen: 53 pnt - 1 win - 6 x 0 pnt (3 DNF)

2009
Hamilton: 49 pnt - 2 wins - 7 x 0 pnt (2 DNF / 1 DSQ)
Kovalainen: 22 pnt - 0 wins - 10 x 0 pnt (5 DNF)

I think McLaren was right to let Kovalainen go. Button is a much more consistent driver and points-grabber than Kovalainen was.

True, that's what he has over Kova. But keep in mind Heiki's experience and the fact that he's still developing as a driver.
Button is ok, but he could be better. Points grabbing is good but can be detrimental if we're to ignore that podiums and wins matter more.
Points grabbing keeps you in the champions fight, but it only puts you at the gate looking in. It gives a false sense of title defense when in reality Button has been falling backward since the mid season, similar to 2009. His consistency now leaves him with basically no chance even though he has made virtually no mistakes and can't find a critical point in the season where he lost the title.