Brazilian GP 2010 - Interlagos

[ringo]

You can't use more but you may chose to use the higher speeds longer hypothetically.
gearing determines that. For example on long straight, you can stay in 7th at 18,000rpm at terminal speed half the straight, or you may set the gearing so that you reach seventh in the last quarter, staying at max rev at a shorter time.

[Arunas]

Yeah, remember Vettels RB bouncing on rev limiter several times hunting Button in Spa...

[alelanza]

For example on long straight, you can stay in 7th at 18,000rpm at terminal speed half the straight,

I very much doubt any team sets up their car that way, they would get too easily mugged into turn 1. Modern F1 cars rarely hit the rev limiter in 7th gear unless following another car, or maybe wild change of wind direction/speed.

Everyone has their theory

It would seem F1 personnel have an unified view, and it happens to match what most of us that have posted in this thread have said.
You seem to be the one that has the differing theory, apparently based on hitting the rev limiter halfway through the circuit's longest and uphill straight, i'd say you may want to expand on that 'theory'

[aral]

Yeah, remember Vettels RB bouncing on rev limiter several times hunting Button in Spa...

Yeah, but that was through the gears, and is not uncommon. But on the straights? If a car was on the rev limit half way down a straight, then the team have made a boo-boo, and fitted the wrong gears.

[ringo]

For example on long straight, you can stay in 7th at 18,000rpm at terminal speed half the straight,

I very much doubt any team sets up their car that way, they would get too easily mugged into turn 1. Modern F1 cars rarely hit the rev limiter in 7th gear unless following another car, or maybe wild change of wind direction/speed.

Everyone has their theory

It would seem F1 personnel have an unified view, and it happens to match what most of us that have posted in this thread have said.
You seem to be the one that has the differing theory, apparently based on hitting the rev limiter halfway through the circuit's longest and uphill straight, i'd say you may want to expand on that 'theory'

It's not a theory, it's a hypothetical situation that is very possible.
If renault has a weaker engine than the mercedes, renault will gear the car so that it hit it's maximum speed early and maintain it. They need the power at the higher rev.
Mercedes can afford for slightly longer gearing becuase it has more power throughout the rev range. That is not illogical.
It is a fact that gearing can decide when and where the engine's maximum power is used.
I gave facts as to why an engine's wear may increase at lower pressure, given the need to maintain the same power as if it were at a lower altitude the engine may have to spend more time at a higher speed to accomplish this.
I supported that mathematically, and my theory is still consistent.
If you want to save your engine, by all means use longer gearing and run at a lower engine speed throughout.
If you are using a ninth engine, go all out and gear for sustained engine speeds.
I'm not wrong, it makes sense.
However those of you who held the opposite view had no evidence whatsoever to support your views. You just made a bunch of guesses or went on what you were fed from the media.

I'm sure the teams are bringing in different strategies and gearing to compensate for the lower power. Some want to save the engine, some will run it hard.

Some gear and map for drivability becuase the power is less. Nothing wrong there.

[ringo]

A car can be geared to run at it maximum engine speed without bouncing off the limiter.
If the aerodynamic load balances the engine power. Never driven a weak car and notice the full gearing can't be used?
It's best to think about it, than having to wait on a quote to justify a position.
It's all math.
We have seen that redbull obviously gears shorter becuase they either have less power or too much drag.

here's an example. 49s in, Hamilton in 7th right as he starts the straight. Engine speed barely moving. It's been done many times.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkiT13rAgBo[/youtube]

[aral]

A car can be geared to run at it maximum engine speed without bouncing off the limiter.
If the aerodynamic load balances the engine power. Never driven a weak car and notice the full gearing can't be used?
It's best to think about it, than having to wait on a quote to justify a position.
It's all math.
We have seen that redbull obviously gears shorter becuase they either have less power or too much drag.

here's an example. 49s in, Hamilton in 7th right as he starts the straight. Engine speed barely moving. It's been done many times.

The maximum engine speed is limited by the rev limiter, to 18000rpm. Unless the team have been extremely clever, and calculated the drag that there would be, preciseley, and geared the car to run at 17999rpm, all the way down a straight, then the limiter will kick in. And then, what happens if there is a slipstream, or even a tailwind. I feel that the car would be geared to run no greater than 17500rpm, on a straight, and using f duct. Running on a limiter would be detrimental to an engine, and would/could cause the car to slow down because of the decellerative efect of a "misfiring " engine.

[alelanza]

It's not a theory, it's a hypothetical situation that is very possible.

Cool, then there must plenty of examples where this has happened, care to provide any?
And again, this is a car on its own, punching its own hole through the air.

If renault has a weaker engine than the mercedes, renault will gear the car so that it hit it's maximum speed early and maintain it.

So gearing can somehow generate power in order to compensate? you do realize if they were to hit top speed sooner, that top speed would still be lower than the other car's, thus mugged into 1.

They need the power at the higher rev.

Who doesn't?

I gave facts as to why an engine's wear may increase at lower pressure,

Not facts really, but yes in certain conditions you would be right. However the conditions you're proposing is a team gearing a car to hit the limiter halfway through the straight.

I supported that mathematically,

Did you? are you by any chance related to a certain WB?

However those of you who held the opposite view had no evidence whatsoever to support your views. You just made a bunch of guesses or went on what you were fed from the media.

Yeah we're all wrong, why would BMEP have anything to do with engine longevity? what's with those crazy people forging parts on turbo engines? yeah f1 teams are wrong, the world is wrong. How lucky for us we have you to steer us clear.

If the aerodynamic load balances the engine power. Never driven a weak car and notice the full gearing can't be used?

Yes, but that's the result of too long gearing. And it's not related to weak cars at all. Most modern cars can't hit top speed in top gear, rather they do so in the next lowest gear, top gear is left for cruising nicely.
If you reach 'top speed' halfway through the straight because of drag or rev limiter, then your gearing is either too tall or too short. In both instances your car's average speed through the straight is lower than it could have been, thus setting you up to be easily overtaken. Yet you claim a weaker engine should be 'helped' by incorrect gearing??? i mean, it's already weak to begin with and now you want to compound the problem.
Plus, like someone mentioned before, there's less air to drag you down, so what is it you need to make up for?

[ringo]

Feel free to argue and throw around words. You are focusing more on back answering me than actually saying anything constructive.

Your making up strawman arguments such as comparing a turbo charged engine, with multiples of pressure, to a slight 7.2% decrease in pressure.
Then you say something crazy like gearing can increase power. I wasn't arguing about power, i was talking about the power delivery and making use of it at the right time, by gearing.

Obviously increased pressure increases stress on the parts. But if an engine spins at 1,800rpm with 10psi of boost, compared to a naturally aspirated engine that spins at 18,000rpm, which one do you think sees more stress? Shouldn't all that pressure kill the boosted engine?

What also defeats your point is that the 2013 engines will be boosted to 2.5bar, but only 4 will be used per season instead of 8.
You just have to balance the pros with the cons and how it fits the situation, to do that you have to actually work it out.

i often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.

Lord Kelvin

[alelanza]

Feel free to argue and throw around words. You are focusing more on back answering me than actually saying anything constructive.

Dude, look around, what could be said about the original question was already said and we're well beyond the point of anything constructive. Look at what you just wrote:

But if an engine spins at 1,800rpm with 10psi of boost, compared to a naturally aspirated engine that spins at 18,000rpm, which one do you think sees more stress?

You just divided revs by 10, multiplied boost by 10 and seriously think any conclusions can be derived from that? and then you put a quote about 'numbers', and before that you used the word 'mathematical' just because. You also suggest to cripple the gear ratios of teams that already have the so called power deficit.You can't possibly be typing all that with a straight face.

What also defeats your point is that the 2013 engines will be boosted to 2.5bar, but only 4 will be used per season instead of 8.

1- That spec is not confirmed, plus that's a separate debate and even more off topic than we already are

2- 4 engines at 2.5 bar is just regulation, not proof of an engineering concept. They may as well say 4 engines at 20k rpms and the teams will make that work just as well.

[ringo]

You just divided revs by 10, multiplied boost by 10 and seriously think any conclusions can be derived from that?

That was an extreme example to demonstrate.


Let's see what the teams, especially ferrari and sauber dare to do to adress the engine issue.
Too many questions, drivability, cooling, etc.


Frankly, I just wanna see some smoke screens on the back straight

[mx_tifoso]

...

Frankly, I just wanna see some smoke screens on the back straight

If that's what you want it better be a certain driver with a yellow helmet.

[Mr Alcatraz]

I have a feeling that Fred is going to administer a serious beat-down in Brazil
The F10 should be very efective at interlagos (a short track), and Alonso knows magic.

[djos]

I have a feeling that Fred is going to administer a serious beat-down in Brazil
The F10 should be very efective at interlagos (a short track), and Alonso knows magic.

We'll see, I reckon Webbo will bounce back with a vengeance and put Golden Balls back in his Cot.

[Richard]

Yellow helmeted smoke screens, golden balls and fred's magic - nice to get back to technical stuff after all that talk of gearing.