Mercedes SLS

[Pup]

I don't think it competes with those so much either. Isn't its competition more like an Aston Martin, a Ferrari 612 or a Maserati? It's supposed to be a heavy GT. Quick, but comfy. It's made to show off to the country club buddies, not to toss around on a track day.

[segedunum]

It's always dangerous to try and compartmentalise a high end market like this because everything ends up competing against everything else for attention. It's not as if the SLS is any more practical than any other sports car you can buy and it's not as if you can't use other cars that the SLS supposedly doesn't compete against as 'Grand Tourers'. There's a lot of overlap and it's a risky thing to paint yourself completely into a corner. The GT acronym is seriously abused by many car companies to create a niche that isn't really there. You either get sports cars with optional extras and the GT sticker or far heavier cars that aren't sports cars like Bentleys.

If the GT moniker sticks and the SLS is really competing against the likes of the V8 Vantage then it loses on looks and prestige straight away. Bentley Continental GT? Hardly. You're not going to like being in a car park with those next to you. It begs the question of what the SLS really competes against. At least BMW doesn't have ideas above their station.

EDIT: As an aside I'd hazard a guess that the poor SLR sales weren't down to McLaren as the always convenient excuse. It was simply that the car was poorly positioned in the looks, styling and image departments. No one quite knew why they should buy it.

Put simply, if Mercedes thought the SLS wasn't competing with certain cars of their rivals then the SLM wouldn't have been rushed on to the drawing board and wouldn't be being positioned as far away from the SLS as they can get away with.

[NewtonMeter]

Segendum, lets come back in a year's time and see if the SLS really is such an enormous disaster you clearly want it to be. You seem very certain of yourself after all, I'm sure you'll enjoy rubbing my, and many others', noses in its failure.

Oh, and for the record, for me it certainly doesn't lose out on either looks or prestige and bentlys are dog ugly. It's a matter of taste and perception. But that's just me.

And yes, you can use those others as grand tourers. But you can use a bicycle as well if you really want to. But you won't enjoy it near as much, now will you? By the same token you can use a F458 or whatever if you enjoy having a backache.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

I don't think it competes with those so much either. Isn't its competition more like an Aston Martin, a Ferrari 612 or a Maserati? It's supposed to be a heavy GT. Quick, but comfy. It's made to show off to the country club buddies, not to toss around on a track day.

With you most the way there. It actually can be used at a track.
7mins 44 seconds at the nordschleife says all you need to know.

The SLS can actually be a bundle of fun at a track day. Its not a razor sharp track tool, but I defy anyone not to come away smiling after a few laps in one of these....apart from segedunum of course.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8ZyWD8mPHw[/youtube]

They really are struggling arent they?

Well you said it.

Irony
Much as you hate the SLS/Mercedes I think you will find their order books are full for 20 months. If thats struggling, McLaren will be aiming to struggle
As for the SLM being rushed, you have an insider you care to name? Based on what?
Thats its been in the works since 2008/9 and is due for release in 2013....
5 years rushing???

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As an aside I'd hazard a guess that the poor SLR sales weren't down to McLaren as the always convenient excuse. It was simply that the car was poorly positioned in the looks, styling and image departments. No one quite knew why they should buy it.

So Mercedes commission McLaren to do car with a design brief, and its Mercedes fault?

[Richard]

Test this out:

An experienced client with extensive experience in the market place identifies that it can develop a product that will sell well. It works out the brief and commissions a leading technology company to deliver a product to meet the brief.

The product wins plaudits for technical excellence but misses the gap in the market so fails to sell.

Who's at fault, the person identifying the market need and defining the brief, or the person who developed superb technology to meet the brief given to them?

I admit this is a stereotype, the true scenario would have been much less clear cut and the design/brief development would have been an iterative process between the two companies. Ultimately though, it was Mercs job to commission a product they could sell.

[Belatti]

Richard leeds understood me well and NewtonMeter hit me in the head but its OK, I could have write what I wrote in a better way.

Quick, but comfy. It's made to show off to the country club buddies, not to toss around on a track day.

Exactly the things that makes me loathe those kind of cars.

The same reason I dislike jewels or extremely expensive clothes: they are to show off, not a practical useful thing.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

By that measure Richard, Mercedes were in their rights to go with AMG instead of Mclaren. Thing is Mclaren cannot make a Mercedes, this is what was learnt.
AMG can, I mean 440 SLS sold in the US alone since July, and triple that world wide(conservatively) plus huge demand(Merc struggling ) are stand out reasons why the internal way is better. AMG has an understanding of Mercedes customer base McLaren could never have.

The Market was always there, just no one stupid enough to pay 300k for somthing with an E55 engine and a hideous rear end.
AMG have produced a better product for Mercedes at half the price.

Mercedes will have a trackday special...its called the SLS Blackseries. it isnt aimed at the 458 before anyone has kittens, its aimed squarley at the 599GTB fiorano. Apples with apples....and Belatti it has lost 300kg's to appease the weight lobby!

http://www.4wheelsnews.com/breaking-new ... f-sls-amg/

[xpensive]

Boy that's a classic richard, a very good xample. This is what I always told those product managers from the marketing department in every company I've worked for over the past twenty years or so; "If you come here to ask us to engineer something for you, you better do your homework first,'cause I will ask you to sign-off the detailed specification in blood."

[segedunum]

Much as you hate the SLS/Mercedes I think you will find their order books are full for 20 months.

As I've said previously, I'm sure that you can create the impression of demand with limited supply and other tricks as all these companies do. I seem to remember confident predictions about the SLR of full order books. Like I said, we'll see where it actually is when it's on the road because lead times are lengthy and nothing stays static.

As for the SLM being rushed, you have an insider you care to name? Based on what?

The fact that the SLM has appeared at all in the configuration it's in raises some serious question marks.

So Mercedes commission McLaren to do car with a design brief, and its Mercedes fault?

We both know that's not what happened JET. Mercedes compromised the crap out of it with their 'stack them high and sell them expensive' attitude and created a design-by-committee car where no one could understand what it was for or who it was up against. Frankly, the Mercedes badge did not carry the gravitasse they thought it did, but they don't seem to have learned. The SLR was supposed to be a GT as well, and it looked a hell of a lot better versus the competition than the SLS.........

I'm sure you'll do your best to raise orders but this is an already congested market and Mercedes are up against competitors who have better names, better images and previous history. McLaren have a fabulous car that knocks Mercedes into a cocked hat engineering-wise in the first round, but difficult times still face the car industry and even being the best guarantees nothing. Mercedes are so far away from being the best it's just cringworthy that someone might think that......

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

As I've said previously, I'm sure that you can create the impression of demand with limited supply and other tricks as all these companies do.

I deal in facts and sales figures old chum, 440 $200,000 supercars sold in 4months in the US ALONE makes a mockery of your "logic".
I would drop this line of attack as it will spare your .

The fact that the SLM has appeared at all in the configuration it's in raises some serious question marks.

What "serious question marks"? question marks for Mercedes haters perhaps?

The SLR was supposed to be a GT as well, and it looked a hell of a lot better versus the competition than the SLS.........

Based on what facts?
Autocar rate the SLS as "far superior to the SLR". And I give it another ohh...2 months before the SLS has already outsold the SLR in just 6months!

Give it a rest, you sounding possesed by the anti-Mercedes spirits again!

[segedunum]

The product wins plaudits for technical excellence but misses the gap in the market so fails to sell.

You've knocked every nail in with that one Richard.

The SLS is in the same apparent market bracket as the 'failed' SLR was. I'm loath to give credence to this whole GT 'separate' market segment, but the SLS was a designated GT as well, it was better looking versus the competition than the SLS and better engineered to boot. It appears that Mercedes have learnt absolutely nothing from that failure and are determined to do worse.

Thing is Mclaren cannot make a Mercedes, this is what was learnt.

Well quite. Unfortunately, the lesson to be learned here is that a 'Mercedes' is not what is required.

[autogyro]

Boy that's a classic richard, a very good xample. This is what I always told those product managers from the marketing department in every company I've worked for over the past twenty years or so; "If you come here to ask us to engineer something for you, you better do your homework first,'cause I will ask you to sign-off the detailed specification in blood."

+1
I dont always agree with you xpensive but on this I am 100 percent in agreement.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

The SLS is in the same apparent market bracket as the 'failed' SLR was. I'm loath to give credence to this whole GT 'separate' market segment, but the SLS was a designated GT as well, it was better looking versus the competition than the SLS and better engineered to boot. It appears that Mercedes have learnt absolutely nothing from that failure and are determined to do worse.

Find me one test where the SLS is deemed a failure.
This forum has seen enough of you berating this car, that is not what it is for.

I suggest mods intervene before you blame Mercedes for causing World War 2 and the Tsunami in 2006.
May I also suggest before another Mercedes related thread is locked again because of your negativity, that you avoid posting unless you have a constructive and fact based argument?

[NewtonMeter]

segedunum mate. Believe what you want. If that makes you a happier person, more power to you!
=D>