Button signs for Mclaren

[PlatinumZealot]

Yes.. Hamilton has shades of Jim Clark and Mario Andretti with his high adaptability. I still can't wrap my head around the times he beat Jenson using Jenson's setups. Those were times when he crashed out in practice or when he had to discard his setups and play the team game. The rest of the times though Hamilton has proven that he can setup the car to an acceptable level much more faster than Jenson can. He can make a crappy car work, and work good. Silver Donkey.

[lebesset]

well , having watched paffet test driving the McLaren ,and bearing in mind that he is the primary simulator developer of both upgrades and next years car as well as being their reserve driver , I more than willing to bow to his superior knowledge and accept that he is best placed to know both button's strengths and where his problems lie ; so if he says button cannot drive the current car / tyre combination in a manner he likes , I accept what he says ..certainly his knowledge is going to be far superior to mine [ or anyone else who posts here ! ] so why do you think he is wrong , ringo ? what do you know that he doesn't ?; frankly the driver who can get the maximum out of ANY car is a rare bird indeed , schu was to be reputed to be able to do it but we have seen that there was no truth in that ; as stated , the last I have seen was clark , the standard by which I judge all others

so I don't accept your comments ; hamilton is better on tyres because the car is more suitable for his natural driving style , easy for him to set up ,and I for one never thought he was particularly hard on tyres ...button is having to adapt as best he can ; any driver will be fastest driving in the manner with which he feels most comfortable ..why should button be different ? it is up to the team to produce a suitable car if they want the best from their drivers ; jackie stewart was interviewed during practise 2 and related a story of when he was at BRM with graham hill , during a race they had a 1-2 sewn up , well in front , and the team signalled them both to slow down ;in fact they kept going faster !! he said we relaxed and tried to slow a little , just driving smoothly ..but that made us faster

button can't improve ? how so ? during the jackie stewart interview amongst other things he talked about his latter years ; he felt he was at his best when he arrived in his mid thirties ....at the end his team mate was francois cevert of whom he said ...he was young and probably faster than me , but I could beat him because I had the experience ...and , if memory serves , generally he did beat him

richard , gary made it quite clear that , due to no in season testing , the development and design work done on the simulator is a great help but certainly nowhere near perfect ; I think his little jest about getting some time off to go to the DTM indicates just how much simulator work goes on though , after all it is all that the teams have

with regard to hamilton using button's set ups , the basic set up is now done by the engineers , and that is what hamilton will use ; the last race gives a good indication of what happens when the drivers can't tune that basic spec , hamilton was ok but not great , button was hopeless ; this weekend button has permission to throw the dice and go for a contrary set up ; I am not hopeful !

anyone notice how McLaren missed a trick in korea ...mercedes changed the setup during the red flag period and were very fast until it dried up near the end

jenson button , WDC 2011 ? wouldn't put it past him if the new regulations suit him

[ell66]

I agree Hamilton is consitently faster in kph around most the tracks. However, his team mate who has carefully avoided "racing incdents" could hardly be closer to him in the WDC. One more Hamilton "racing incident" and Button will be ahead.

could hardly be closer? he's 20 points behind not 5!!

China 08 - self inflected by gambling for the race win. If he had simply followed behind Kimi all day he would have been WDC.

The WDC & WCC tables might giev you a clue. Points win the WCC & WDC, not speed.[/quote]

shows how little you know, last time i looked hamilton was the world champion in 2008, and speed = high grip placements = higher points finishes.

[ringo]

You should have listened to what Gary said in Korea. Those words weren't exactly encouraging for Button.
It was almost as if he was puzzled by Button not challenging for points. I don't have the exact words so i wont comment.

Interesting story you've got there from Stewart, another one of the legends of the sport. I see what you are saying about smooth driving and relaxing. It does work, but i think it's best when leading with a clear track and nothing on your mind but bringing home the car.

I think Jackie's days are different as well. The car's back then had very broad characteristics, as you mentioned the BRM engine, and i don't think the drivers had similar training programs or technical support to find the best way around a track. Those days seem to be less refined than now. I can imagine that more relaxed and precise driving would have led to faster times.

It seems as if you are saying Hamilton's style is not relaxed either. I think he does drive relaxed if the car is at the front. Hungary 2009, Canada 2010, Suzuka 2010 with a broken gearbox.
Coincidentally from the front is where Jackie refers to changing style and relaxing.

The curios case of Jenson Button is that he is smooth all the time, and it does not necessarily result in faster lap times compared to his teammate. When push comes to shove and he needs to step on it, he doesn't. Set in his ways.

This is why i think he can't improve speed wise; he's still learning. He doesn't seem bothered to get on top of his problems. From day one the tyres were bothering him, try learning them and getting the most out of them. Where's the fighting spirit? He just wait for the pirellis, and they're not guaranteed to feel better.

I don't think we can blame the setup either. That's ignoring the inherent problem.
Button completely setup the car in Germany and Japan, with no input from Hamilton.
Hamilton jumps into that car with no seat time and blitzes the guy.
Right now in Brazil button is shuffling the deck and rolling the dice, and he's still complaining of rear grip and is down 6 tenths on Hamilton.

I don't think the car is more suitable for Hamilton. Button himself said that the car is neutral and he can take it in his direction. The tyres may not suit him though.
I think these weaknesses separate the best from the rest. Shumacher, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Rosberg. These guys just get in on, regardless of the situation.
Shumacher has progressed better over the season than Button, and he had 3 years off and had to learn the slicks.

[lebesset]

well , for practise 3 we had ant davidson ; as usual the reason why hamilton is quicker than button came up ...davidson's answer ? tyres don't suit button

he said that button is actually a very good qualifier given the right equipment , said he was much better on michelin tyres that were stickier ....even said that button managed to get the honda on pole !! [ I would have thought I would remembered that but I don't ! ]

he also said that it is extremely difficult to adapt to different styles of equipment ....as an example he quoted mika hakkinen , top F1 driver but never adapted to DTM

he discussed qualifying , which he described as an art , some love it , some don't ; the two current best exponents of the art he named a trulli and vettel , he inferred that being a great qualifier and being a great racer didn't necessarily go together [ he said he loved qualifying ]

other things that were said ....mercedes were on full wet set up in korea

at this track when the rain stops the track gets MORE slippery because it becomes greasy before before it starts to dry

[Terrible3]

he discussed qualifying , which he described as an art , some love it , some don't ; the two current best exponents of the art he named a trulli and vettel , he inferred that being a great qualifier and being a great racer didn't necessarily go together

Vettel and Trullis lack luster performances from poll are for two completely different reasons. Vettel has race pace, Trulli simply does not. Mechanical failures and poor strategy calls tend to ruin SV races when on poll (The exception being when he went off in 2009 when in front of Button).

[Goran2812]

Jenson is a joke... it's always "the car" with him... it's not the car Jenson, it's you... -.-

[ringo]

lol, i don't think he's a joke. He's just not top shelf or up to the task that Mclaren set for him. 3 tenths is not much, but for a short lap like Interlagos, it may well have been half a second on a longer track.
Well he's in the lion's den, it's not going to be easy, but he asked for it . The beatings are taking their toll psychologically. You can see it in his interviews; i don't think he'll be there for the 2012 season. Hamilton is too much.


I think the car is the problem for button. It just not perfect or superior. The brawn has spoiled him. I guess the point to which it is being pushed makes it feel like it is deficient. If the redbull or ferrari were slower the car would not have to be pushed as far and maybe button would think differently since he could drive it smoothly.
Saying that, it's good that Button is on the team. His complaints, though overblown, are legitimate. Hamilton is having the same problems but he can deal with it better and chooses not to voice them.
A bump in the track is like an earthquake to Jenson and a little skid of the wheel is like a power slide. He would make a good refinement driver in winter testing.

[Terrible3]

Sorry but I for one think that JB complaining about brake bias is hilarious. I guess he ran out of other excuses... Jensen get a hold of yourself, its all in your head as the brake bias is freely adjustable in the cockpit.

[i70q7m7ghw]

This thread needs closing, it's reduced to people just quoting things like 'luck'.

If you were paying attention to the race the swap to the prime tyre was an obvious thing to do and the best time to do it was while Hulkenberg held everybody up, Jenson capitalised on this. Jenson has shown his experience wins when it comes to strategy and a feel for what the track is doing.

Jenson struggles in qualifying and that appears to be mostly down to being able to make use tyres effecitvely, he seems to struggle to feel the limit quickly enough. The general observation in the paddock is that Jenson used to qualify very well on Michelin rubber which was described as a stickier type of rubber which was easier to get working. Bridgestones appear to be harder to get working and are alot more durable, take a look at McLaren today, 20 lap old tyres on the Ferrari & Red Bulls doing the same lap times as fresh tyres on the McLarens. This makes it hard for Jenson as his driving style tends to be a bit kindier to tyres. I am convinced that the Bridgestone compound that was used at Brazil could have easily done the entire race and still delivered comparable lap times throughout.

Next year should be interesting, the Pirelli tyre is an unkown which could play towards Jenson's strengths, or equally might not.

I also feel Jenson was faster than Lewis in the race, and could have overtaken him and finished ahead either in the pit stops or on track. He didn't ofcourse because from a championship point of view Jenson was out either way so it was a no-brainer to have Lewis finish ahead.

[dougskullery]

well , having watched paffet test driving the McLaren ,and bearing in mind that he is the primary simulator developer of both upgrades and next years car as well as being their reserve driver , I more than willing to bow to his superior knowledge and accept that he is best placed to know both button's strengths and where his problems lie ; so if he says button cannot drive the current car / tyre combination in a manner he likes , I accept what he says ..certainly his knowledge is going to be far superior to mine [ or anyone else who posts here ! ] so why do you think he is wrong , ringo ? what do you know that he doesn't ?; frankly the driver who can get the maximum out of ANY car is a rare bird indeed , schu was to be reputed to be able to do it but we have seen that there was no truth in that ; as stated , the last I have seen was clark , the standard by which I judge all others

so I don't accept your comments ; hamilton is better on tyres because the car is more suitable for his natural driving style , easy for him to set up ,and I for one never thought he was particularly hard on tyres ...button is having to adapt as best he can ; any driver will be fastest driving in the manner with which he feels most comfortable ..why should button be different ? it is up to the team to produce a suitable car if they want the best from their drivers ; jackie stewart was interviewed during practise 2 and related a story of when he was at BRM with graham hill , during a race they had a 1-2 sewn up , well in front , and the team signalled them both to slow down ;in fact they kept going faster !! he said we relaxed and tried to slow a little , just driving smoothly ..but that made us faster

button can't improve ? how so ? during the jackie stewart interview amongst other things he talked about his latter years ; he felt he was at his best when he arrived in his mid thirties ....at the end his team mate was francois cevert of whom he said ...he was young and probably faster than me , but I could beat him because I had the experience ...and , if memory serves , generally he did beat him

richard , gary made it quite clear that , due to no in season testing , the development and design work done on the simulator is a great help but certainly nowhere near perfect ; I think his little jest about getting some time off to go to the DTM indicates just how much simulator work goes on though , after all it is all that the teams have

with regard to hamilton using button's set ups , the basic set up is now done by the engineers , and that is what hamilton will use ; the last race gives a good indication of what happens when the drivers can't tune that basic spec , hamilton was ok but not great , button was hopeless ; this weekend button has permission to throw the dice and go for a contrary set up ; I am not hopeful !

anyone notice how McLaren missed a trick in korea ...mercedes changed the setup during the red flag period and were very fast until it dried up near the end

jenson button , WDC 2011 ? wouldn't put it past him if the new regulations suit him

The thing is, these were supposed to be the regulations that suit Button. Spec tyres with a tendency towards understeer, a lot of rear downforce thanks to double diffusers, fuel regulations which play into the hands of drivers who can look after their tyres.

Virtually every regulation change in 2011 suits Hamilton more than Button. Pirelli are saying they'll introduce more aggressive tyres which, unless they produce a truly unusual set, will generate more front end grip than the 2010 Bridgestones. The ban on the double diffuser means less rear end downforce, and also a shift away from underfloor aero, leading to more freedom of mechanical set-up which should suit Lewis' technical, low-speed strength. While Button's never used KERS, Hamilton undeniably made the best use of the system when it ran in 2009.

No, it's not as simple as that, and certainly a couple of those points could be debated. But I can't see a single regulation change for 2011 which is likely to benefit Jenson. They'll either play towards Lewis, or make little difference.

[Richard]

Well this thread has gone way off topic.

To get back to OP, Button is on Hamilton's tail in the WDC and that's better than he could have achieved staying with Merc. The only way he could have improved on that would have been to get into a faster car, ie RB or Ferrari.

ps - my earlier ref to china was meant to be China 07.

[lebesset]

diesel + 1


I would think that button is thrilled to have different tyres coming next year , and hoping that pirelli gets agreement for an aggressive tyre strategy

maybe next year the story will be ..yes hamilton is faster but only at the expense of his tyres , he will have to learn to be smoother like button if he wants to win

personally I rate button very highly , as I do alonso [ jury still out on vettel ]

but the only driver who I see as becoming an all time great is hamilton , still has plenty to learn , but I think he will ; racing is about more than sheer speed

[Steven]

I think a full year of this thread is quite enough.

The impressions are made, and performances are done. I don't think any judgement on Button will change at Abu Dhabi.

Anyhow, there's of course the race thread to use