How stiff are F1 tyres?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

You should perhsps be a little more careful with your namedropping then JT, things like that might easily be confused with wannabees without substance, trying to make their mark.

I once came across an individual who persisted to call simple things such as stiffness "Young's modulus" and mass "density", until I cought him out as he couldn't tell the two apart in real life. Some ---, don't you agree JT?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

not load bearing?? :lol:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

strad wrote:OK..you can dis me...But Steve Matchette?
Just coincidentally he spoke to this today in qualifying...
Click on photo to play video
Image
Steve is a former mechanic, not a tire engineer (though he is usually spot on). Personally I don't care who it is. There are things that Claude Rouelle and Doug Milliken might say and I don't necessarily agree with. I disagree with a lot of Paul Haney in his tire book, that's for sure.

No one is disagreeing that when you increase air pressure, the tire rate goes up. That's obvious. The point is, subtle but important, that the air does not carry the load. It's entirely carcass, regardless of how "soft" it seems when uninflated.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

Ok, fine...Whatever you say JT.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

Jersey Tom wrote: ...
The point is, subtle but important, that the air does not carry the load. It's entirely carcass, regardless of how "soft" it seems when uninflated.
I've been trying my best to be polite in this discussion, but either your message is getting lost in semantics,
or you have confused the corporate manuals wherever you're working at JT?

- What faces the road surface load-wise is air pressure times contact patch area.
- What faces the rim load-wise is force on the bead in contact.
- In between the two contacts above, load is conveyed through the sidewalls only.

Conclusively, the way I see this very simple static analysis; The air-pressure indeed carries the load from the road surface, through the sidewalls, to the bead and finally to the rim.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

My eyes cannot believe what the prestigious engineer X has written. The air carries load! Yeah! Like in storms! :lol:

Sorry guys, Im with JT in this one...
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

Belatti wrote:My eyes cannot believe what the prestigious engineer X has written. The air carries load! Yeah! Like in storms! :lol:

Sorry guys, Im with JT in this one...
O'boy, that settles the argument I guess?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

and what about this? no sidewalls!! :mrgreen:

Image

...please forgive for being childish ...

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

My oh my, pressure as load over area, what on odd theory indeed, surely the guy who wrote this is an utter moron?

http://www.carbibles.com/tyre_bible_pg3.html

Xcerpt: That's about as simple a physics equation as you can get.

But on the other hand, perhaps Newtonian laws applies to the world of tyres as well, imagine that, jeez?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

rmstringham
rmstringham
0
Joined: 18 Sep 2010, 07:48

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

marcush. wrote: and what about this? no sidewalls!!
or take it a step further and consider a tire that does not require air/inflation. The vertical deflection is a function of tire material stiffness. As is the contact patch area (think back to your contact stress analysis equations). Increasing inflation pressure increases the tire stiffness, decreasing deflection, and decreasing the contact patch area.

How does your equation hold for that particular tire, xpensive?

I think the proper physics equation for the inflated tire argument would be the ideal gas law...then applying the pressure to your pressure/stiffness relationship.

Belatti
Belatti
33
Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
Location: Argentina

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

Just a semantic problem X, nothing serious :wink:
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

User avatar
strad
117
Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

When I lie on my Select Comfort air mattress it is the air, not that silly bag that supports me.
BTW, JT, I trust Matchette WAY more than you.,....Which F1 team did you work for.
Like I say, you can dis me..but Matchette? No way your opinion out weighs Steves.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

Select comfort mattress is not a tire. You're getting this messed up again... putting load on a tire isn't about compressing its volume from an external source.

Hey man, just trying to tell you how it works. It's for your own benefit, not mine :) I fully encourage you to discover this on your own, not just take my word for it. If you've taken some undergraduate engineering classes you're probably familiar with the 'method of sections' for solving statics problems. I like something similar for analyzing this particular situation.

The net vertical force on the rim is the only thing we're interested in, in terms of carrying vehicle load. Picture an inflated, loaded tire and rim assembly. Make a "virtual" cylindrical cut from the side, about halfway up the sidewalls, and exclude everything from that cut outward toward the tread.

Hell, I'll even provide a picture:
Image

Consider all the forces acting on the rim. Air pressure certainly does exert a force, uniformly in all directions. As such, the air pressure cannot exert any net force on the rim. Integral of air pressure normal to the rim surface, over that surface = 0.0 lbf, thus carries no load. Since the only other thing in contact with the rim is the tire itself, 100% of the load must be supported by the sidewalls. QED

Not one man's opinion versus another, just how it works. For what it's worth though... it's very very dangerous to take what someone says as the gold standard regardless of what their name is. Doesn't matter if it's me, or Steve Matchett, Doug Milliken, Claude Rouelle, Ross Brawn, Chad Knaus, Carroll Smith, Paul Haney, or anyone. When people do that it perpetuates a lot of BS. If someone tells you something, sort out how it works in your head, and if it doesn't jive - figure out the real answer.

It's a huge sticking point among young engineers, particularly in FSAE. Example dialog-

"So and so says this is what the suspension needs to do."

"Yeah? So what? Don't care what he says, you explain to me why that's the case and why it isn't just BS"

"..."
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

+1 jt ..but aren´t we all young engineers or is it all over already ??? :wtf: :wtf:

xpensive
xpensive
214
Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: How stiff are F1 tyres?

Post

I guess I have to quote myself here, nobody ever said that air was forcing the rim in any direction, but the force between road-surface and tyre will always be air-pressure times contact-patch area. I'm actually surprised to have this discussion with someone who claims to work with tyres, but then again, I never met an engineer who uses both "Planck's constant" as well as "Avogadro's number" in his job?
xpensive wrote:
Jersey Tom wrote: ...
The point is, subtle but important, that the air does not carry the load. It's entirely carcass, regardless of how "soft" it seems when uninflated.
I've been trying my best to be polite in this discussion, but either your message is getting lost in semantics,
or you have confused the corporate manuals wherever you're working at JT?

- What faces the road surface load-wise is air pressure times contact patch area.
- What faces the rim load-wise is force on the bead in contact.
- In between the two contacts above, load is conveyed through the sidewalls only.

Conclusively, the way I see this very simple static analysis; The air-pressure indeed carries the load from the road surface, through the sidewalls, to the bead and finally to the rim.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"