Mclaren Mercedes MP4-25

[wesley123]

I can somehow agree with what Ringo says. It is just to 'stable' that you actually have to force it into turns, that you cannot drive it gently, like when you turn it goes. This idea explains why they put on so much front df(front splitter etc.), just to get an bit of an turn in. IMO such an splitter like mclaren uses is incredibly draggy.

One point of this car is clear, they overlook the DDD way too much, they built an car around the whole DDD idea

[kalinka]

It's clear that they couldn't sacrifice that advantage to get mor DF.
You think that I'm just imagining that problem ? It's not sarcasm, i really want to know am I wrong here.

Couple of races — maybe, the whole season — no!
Actually if you watch the footage from the last race there was a camera at the exit of Curva do Sol and McLaren always seemed a bit awkward. Very pitch up attitude, bouncing hard and raising it's inner front wheel. It also was pretty clear all year that McLaren is very hard on the bumps.
So IMO they compromised their suspension too much to make their DDD work.

Thanks Timbo ! It means a lot to me to get response from experienced members like you. It means that my theory was not that amateurish and bad. In my previous post I did mention that I think they only sacrifice their setup at some races ( like Bahrein,Hockenheim,Brasil, maybe Hungary too ). You can find a common thing at all that places : the bumpiness. Does it mean that if they go for a bigger DF, their car would bottom on that bumps ( because more DF compresses the car more to the ground ), and therefore they rather go for higher top speed ? I didn't realise for a long time that their suspension is preventing them to make good compromise between DF/Top speed. I thougth that it was random occurence, but now I see they only do that on bumpy tracks.

[Intego]

When DDD is banned next year maybe Macca can use this DDRW to increase DF...

[timbo]

Thanks Timbo ! It means a lot to me to get response from experienced members like you.

Well, thanks for nice words, but I can be completely off for sure))

I didn't realise for a long time that their suspension is preventing them to make good compromise between DF/Top speed. I thougth that it was random occurence, but now I see they only do that on bumpy tracks.

I remember reading that they have pretty narrow set-up window (regarding ride height), i.e. if the front or rear is too high or too low, they loose DF. This would explain the need for very stiff setup.
But what surprised me in Brazil is how pitched up their car seemed at acceleration. Maybe it was only my impression, who knows. But if it is indeed so, it would seem they are running very stiff front and relatively soft rear end. Why would they want that? Maybe it is because of the extensive use of vortices to feed the underbody?

[Shrieker]

How will the ban on DDD 2011 onwards effect McLaren ? All ideas welcome


Also, will any of the teams still be using the EBD next year ? My Brother told me something along the lines of "they're blowing the upper section of the DDD, so no DDD, no EBD". Can someone please clarify ?



I agree with the idea that McLaren should desing a car with good suspension (like they used to) and high downforce.

[Owen.C93]

There's no reason why any 2011 car can't have a blown diffuser to speed up air flow on the over the diffuser and use gurney flaps to artificially increase the size. As far as I know.

But it's much less effective than before, still with what they have learnt this year with retarded ignition and how to control and model it I guess they will probably stick with it.

[raymondu999]

I don't quite get why people are saying the car understeers... We've seen at various races this year the car's nose is MASSIVE (strong, not huge) and if you watch Monaco/Turkey/Canada etc, the nose is just so crisp on turn in.

[CHT]

Not quite sure what is Jonathan Neale talking about here..

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=49649

[kalinka]

I don't quite get why people are saying the car understeers... We've seen at various races this year the car's nose is MASSIVE (strong, not huge) and if you watch Monaco/Turkey/Canada etc, the nose is just so crisp on turn in.

Yes, it was until..somewhat SPA maybe. Until that, it was really nice to see how the front end performs, but after introducing the EBD, they ( and more and more people are suggesting this ) can't mach the increased DF on back of the car, with front DF, hence it's now an understeery, unbalanced car. We know Button has always complaining about a car, but he almost always complains about balance, and especially in last couple of races. It's effecting his drive style more than Hamilton's I think. In Brasil it was more then obvious. Maybe that's what Timbo saw there : with stiff front and soft rear, on bumpy track...
Maybe the whole development race failed there : lack of front DF. If we consider flexing bits and pieces, at Ferrari and RBR, there is your answer....maybe

[ringo]

The car is not unbalanced. It's pretty much balanced; to me at leats. It is just not neutrally stable, it's overly stable it doesn't turn on a dime.
When Jenson says he doesn't like the balance, i think that's more about his preference not the car itself being unbalanced. I remember him saying "it's on the nose" in brazil, suggesting he doesn't want to much front grip, or maybe there was a lack of rear grip. Whatever the case, his preferences are very peculiar.
From what Lewis says, since he's the one who drove both the 24 and 25, i agree that the 25 is better, but it lacks any stand out qualities. Jenson would do well to compare the brawn to the 25 if he's allowed to publicly. That would be interesting.

The 25 seems almost like the williams last year. Pretty much a top 3 car with decent performance, well balanced, but just not enough of any thing.
In china you could see the front hooking around turns, now we don't see that at all. I agree with whoever said that with the new downforce at the back tipped the scales.

About the springs, I wont comment on the rear and front stiffness because i don't have information on that and i can't really see what's happening from the race video. All i can say is that the car is too stiff, judging from the hopping. Mclaren may have overestimated the effect on the fuel weight on the ride quality. Remember earlier in the season,they were focusing on qualifying suspension setup?
It could be the same thing plaguing them, now that they seem to improve a lot in qualifying. The setup may be affecting the race.

Anyhow, the car is too stiff, and i hope they have a completely new damper philosophy from Koni next year, and better suspension design overall.

They can try experimenting with setups in abu dhabi. I think the redbull and F10 are sprung softer in the front and stiff at the rear. It helps a lot to get the nose down and the splitter, and it also give better front grip.

[Holm86]

McLaren should have an update package for this race :

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/11/12/m ... abu-dhabi/

[segedunum]

It looks as though McLaren might well have plenty of downforce on the car, but it is not usable downforce. The thing that will puzzle everyone with the Red Bull is not just that it has huge amounts of downforce but that the direction change of the car is still swift and the drivers feel completely comfortable with it.

If there is one constant it is that downforce development is king in Formula 1 and that is where you need to really spend youtr time and resources. A F-duct system is something I would only put on a car if I felt comfortable about the raw speed and downforce of the car versus competitors first.

[adrianjordan]

Anyone have any pics of the new rear wing they're using in Abu Dhabi?

[paipa]

If there is one constant it is that downforce development is king in Formula 1 and that is where you need to really spend youtr time and resources. A F-duct system is something I would only put on a car if I felt comfortable about the raw speed and downforce of the car versus competitors first.

The F-duct was a sort of a downforce device after all. Also, it wasn't so much about resources but rather down to an idea that was easy to bolt on the car with a great payoff. No wonder everyone else copied it quickly and effectively.

[segedunum]

The F-duct didn't add any downforce to the car at all. Everyone added it because it was relatively easy to do and there were some tracks where it was worth a chunk of time. For Red Bull it was really worth doing because they had more of a deficit in a straight line compared to other teams.

As a development avenue however, the system was limited and wasn't going to add speed as the EBD was going to. For many tracks such as Monza, Monaco and Hungary, it was clear the system was a large compromise and probably didn't bring tham as much over a season as they had maybe anticipated. It's funny to think that someone on this forum earlier in this thread was fired from McLaren for sharing some nuggets with us, although in truth he didn't share very much.