Ideas on 2011 Formula One innovations

[Giblet]

Whitmarsh has recently said that they have a couple of never before seen innovations on their 2011 challenger.

[marcush.]

like the dead zone..

Yes i think we will also like the Mclaren of 2011 ...They have learned that a different car can be a real contender.Mclaren have done things diferently in 2010 but still kept in the game until the last moment.This suggests that even the RedBull is nowhere close to being the ultimate solution to the new set of rules.

[Giblet]

I was one of the first to keep on the idea of the F-Duct, to much criticism and lambasting.

I kept pushing the idea, then a few others started to see the merit, and eventually, everyone shut the hell up, when it turned out to be exactly what me and a couple others thought it was.

That was one of my finer moments I just wanted to shout a general "I told you so" to everyone who was calling me a nincompoop for sticking to my guns when I knew something was right.

Mclaren has quite a history of coming up with innovations that nobody else was even hovering near, so counting them out would be silly.

Inerter, dual brake pedals, zero keel suspension, f-duct, carbon fiber monocoque, x-wing, etc. They have always been innovators, rarely ever slow, and rarely ever copiers for their core design.

[Formula None]

brings back memories of the TMD
Mercedes (AMG) used movable ballast (via hydraulics app. +/- 400 mm) in there DTM/ITC cars in the mid 90´s to compete with there RWD car against the AWD Alfa&Opel.

The ballast was moved active during accel&braking and between low&high speed corners
to change the weight distribution (balance) front to rear during the duration of a lap, using long/lat accel and speed data to define the position of the car on the track.

Fascinating stuff as usual 747! According to this article, they did that to help compete with the AWD Opel and Alfa entrants:

http://speedhunters.com/archive/2009/07 ... chaft.aspx

I think we will see spectacular front suspension layout in 2011 by RedBull.
We will see Pullrod activation the damper elements will be situated on top of the Tea tray.
This will serve a double function:
It will move heavy components to a lower part of the car ,reducing cofG height and as a added feature Newey will be able to bend the tray area legally upwards under maximum load conditions so we will see the RBR7 running even lower than the RBR6..Am I serious ? who knows....
I seem to remember Newey was talking about new areas of development for next year on the mechanical side...and he will again be stealing a march...maybe not even pullrod ?

maybe it will not quite be as radical but I expect a different front suspension from RedBull as well as a even more pronounced use of bendy components

Fantastic! I can totally imagine what this would look like now that you mention it. That would be so great to see, pullrod setup that maintains the raised nose. I wonder how restrictive the rules are on the tea tray size and shape, though. Can it be brought forward far enough to accomplish this?

How about: tungsten spheres or cylinders lined up in fluid filled tubes routed through the chassis, change the pressure on either side of the chain to make them travel along the length of the tube. You could have ballast piped anywhere you want. Or are the tungsten blocks they used spec'd already?

thats a nice idea that wont even require the fluid, just a couple of strings would do the job

In the regulations it states that ballast must be securely fixed, and requires tools to remove or put in.

Well, you could securely fix the filled cylinder to the chasis and require tools to remove it

Or just make sure the ballast can return to a defined area that appears fixed for inspection, and a has a bomb-bay door you need tools to open. What's that? Spirit of the Rules, you say? Well, I'd say the regs in general lost their soul some time ago...

Another (more esoteric) option would be to mind about the use of mercury for such an application - just kidding

A solid tin block (a little lighter than lead, so diminishing returns here...) could be installed as usual. But you install it in an oven and pump that molten tin around. Or just use it as the primary heat extraction from the engine and run the engine a little hot 'course the drivers wouldn't be to happy about a lap full of molten tin in the event of a crash.

Or ferrofluid maybe, I imagine it has some weight to it, move it about with electromagnets.

[gridwalker]

Mclaren has quite a history of coming up with innovations that nobody else was even hovering near, so counting them out would be silly.

Inerter, dual brake pedals, zero keel suspension, f-duct, carbon fiber monocoque, x-wing, etc. They have always been innovators, rarely ever slow, and rarely ever copiers for their core design.

I do believe that the X wings appeared on a tyrrell first ... I also believe that tyrrell was the first modern raised nose design (or anhedral wing, as I heard it called at the time).

Good old Ken Tyrrell ... a highly under rated innovator

EDIT : originally quoted wrong post!

EDIT 2 : Seeing as you were talking about movable ballast, that was another tyrrell trick

[Formula None]

I do believe that the X wings appeared on a tyrrell first ... I also believe that tyrrell was the first modern raised nose design (or anhedral wing, as I heard it called at the time).

Good old Ken Tyrrell ... a highly under rated innovator

EDIT : originally quoted wrong post!

EDIT 2 : Seeing as you were talking about movable ballast, that was another tyrrell trick

Tyrell also had a single beam front wing support, but I'm not sure if they were the first with that or not. I'd like to see someone (except Virgin who couldn't keep the wing on with two) attempt this in 2011.

[gridwalker]

I am not certain whether the regulations governing the standardised FW central section would allow this : does anyone have any insight on the matter?

[machin]

I am not certain whether the regulations governing the standardised FW central section would allow this

Correct: The front wing MUST be supported by two elements. Its in the rules.

[andrew]

I do believe that the X wings appeared on a tyrrell first ... I also believe that tyrrell was the first modern raised nose design (or anhedral wing, as I heard it called at the time).

Good old Ken Tyrrell ... a highly under rated innovator

Tyrell also had a single beam front wing support, but I'm not sure if they were the first with that or not. I'd like to see someone (except Virgin who couldn't keep the wing on with two) attempt this in 2011.

Tyrrell had the first higher nose cone on the 019 in 1990:

And continued the concept in 1991 with the 020:

And in 1992 with the 020B:

But the idea in the current layout, with 2 uprights and a flat wing, was first seen on the Benetton B191 in 1991:

The single beam front wing support appeared on the Tyrrell 025 in 1997, as did the X-wings:

[godlameroso]

What about noses for next year, does anyone have any ideas? I have one, I got it from looking at the RB6 nose, I see that the nose itself has a lot of rake, although it's relatively high up, it's also flat at the trailing edges but not quite. It has more curve at the tip of the nose than any other car.

Long story short, perhaps that semi dome structure that's created by the nose creates a low pressure area, directly behind the front wing. It could be why they moved the cameras inside the wing supports(to help channel more air under the nose). The rest of the area leading to the floor could be designed to flow air out as fast as possible. This would create a diffuser like effect, in theory.

Perhaps bringing the side pods forward will help, but in turn move the CoP forward as well. Maybe this could be a way to get the front end to turn, which is why the RB6 was so good. It actually had a slightly forward CoP relative to the CoG, coupled and balanced with the crazy down force from the double diffuser, and bam the thing drove like is on rails.

Next rear DF will suffer as a result of the ban on DDF's. I could see next years cars be oversteery, especially if teams start developing the front end. Too bad you're not allowed to use fans to cool your KERS device .

What kind of suspensions will we see next year? Is alignment more precise with pull rod or push rod suspensions?

[Formula None]

Going off marcush's idea, some simple visualizations of a front pullrod setup connecting to the tea tray.

Green - pullrod
Yellow - torsion spring/bellcrank pivot axis







The tea tray would need reinforcement, and airflow would become restricted through that area. The pullrods could be enlarged and used as barge boards. The nose, now free of suspension components could serve as an air intake for the engine or radiators, or maybe just become a more extreme version of the Ferrari F2008's flow through design.



Or, relocate the steering rack inline with the lower wishbone and hollow out the entire top side creating a taco shape to funnel air and gain some downforce. Any idea how much downforce a taco shell generates?

[Formula None]

More on the taco nose:

Green - pullrod
Yellow - torsion spring/bellcrank pivot axis
Grey - Monocoque cross section
Blue - MS Paint CFD analysis




Might look something like this (black line) from the driver's perspective:

[747heavy]

the "taco bell" idea is maybe limited by rules demanding a minimum chassis cross section. see FIA regs for correct dimensions.

other then that - a "tasty" idea

[marcush.]

I do believe that the X wings appeared on a tyrrell first ... I also believe that tyrrell was the first modern raised nose design (or anhedral wing, as I heard it called at the time).

Good old Ken Tyrrell ... a highly under rated innovator

EDIT : originally quoted wrong post!

EDIT 2 : Seeing as you were talking about movable ballast, that was another tyrrell trick

Tyrell also had a single beam front wing support, but I'm not sure if they were the first with that or not. I'd like to see someone (except Virgin who couldn't keep the wing on with two) attempt this in 2011.

i think the infamous arrows -porsche FA12 was the first one in 1991

[Giblet]

I do believe that the X wings appeared on a tyrrell first...

Thank you I stand corrected.