TameTire model

[ghost406]

Hi,
Have you never herad about TameTire model?
See you

[747heavy]

It´s a tire model developed by Michelin, which includes thermal effects and there
influences on tire/vehicle performance.

TaMeTirE is a new thermo-mechanical tyre model for handling simulation developed by Michelin. Its main benefit compared to mathematical fit models is its capability to extrapolate tyre force and moment to the actual driving conditions of the vehicle by taking both speed and tyre temperature effects into account and showing their significant influence on the lateral force in pure cornering conditions. TaMeTirE can accurately predict the lateral force especially when the tyre is at the limit of friction.

some infos:
http://www.ipg.de/Model-Theory.786.0.html?&L=1

[ghost406]

...

Do you know if ti is available for customers or not?

[747heavy]

AFAIK - it´s availible.
If you follow the link you will come to the www.ipg.de website.
They seem to be one of the resellers and it is integrated in their CarMaker simulation.
As far as I can see, you can order a demo kit of this software.
Not sure if it is any good or not, but maybe worth a try.

Good luck

[Jersey Tom]

Even if the model is available.. good luck getting enough data to make it work.

[Tim.Wright]

This is something Id love to have a look at. We have been using Carmaker for some lap time simulations.

But yea, as JT said - parameterising for anything other than a Michelin might be difficult.

Validating it on a race car will be even more so. But anyway, I think its a step in the right direction. Even a basic implementation would likely be better than using Pacejka.

Tim

[Jersey Tom]

Difficult would be an understatement. It's expensive enough as is just doing flat track testing on tires, to the level that few people have the funds to do it. Add in carcass characterization, tread rubber characterization, model implementation, validation against F&M measurements... huge investment.

The other question would be how quickly does it run. If it's as fast as an empirical model - great! If it's substantially slower or anywhere near real-time, I'd say it would be impractical for large scale DOE work and chassis / setup development.

Bottom line, there are few organizations that really have the resources for much tire testing and modeling. Fewer still do a good job of it, and many users of Pacejka models probably aren't getting the full potential out of them. This kind of thing has the potential to be more trouble than it's worth.

[DaveW]

On the other hand, F1 appears to be replacing track testing with driver-in-the-loop (DIL) simulation. It is difficult to imagine they can be anything other than expensive procedure trainers without accurate thermal elements for the tyre models.

[Tim.Wright]

The other question would be how quickly does it run.

My guess is it runs at least faster than realtime since thats the basis of the IPG Carmaker application. So it should be somewhat useful in DOE type simulations. If I get some spare time I will see if I can get a copy of it.

If IPG and Michelin are keen to push this product to race teams, they will need to have some pretty good suggestions on how to paremetrise it otherwise its simply not viable for all the reasons JT has already said.

Tim

[ghost406]

On the other hand, F1 appears to be replacing track testing with driver-in-the-loop (DIL) simulation. It is difficult to imagine they can be anything other than expensive procedure trainers without accurate thermal elements for the tyre models.

Redbull is already using is own thermic tire model in his driving simulator.
In driving simulator you need a very accurate tyre model to be as close as possible to the real life...
TameTire is the tyre model of the futur.

[Jersey Tom]

Don't get ahead of yourself there ghost. Personally I think those driver in the loop sims are kinda useless for chassis and setup development. Slow, inefficient and impractical for exploring much design space. Maybe good for final setup work and driver development. Otherwise, DOE is the way to go.

[Tim.Wright]

Wrong again JT. If you fill a driver with enough amphetamines you can perform driver in the loop simulations fast enough to do a setup optimisation.

Its all about thinking outside the box. Haven't you wondered why teams have test drivers even though testing is banned?

Tim