A hydraulic suspension system?

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xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

A hydraulic suspension system?

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Usually my threads don't draw too much attention, but please give this one a thought or two, now that I have.

After beholding the McLaren MP4-12C roadcar's hydraulic anti-roll bar system, what I would like to see in F1 is a completely hydraulic suspension system, including accumulators for springs and orifices for dampers, all in a passive mode of course.

This way, heavy components could be placed anywhere basically.

Would this be aggainst the rules or not feasible for other reasons?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
marcush.
159
Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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Tyrrell(!) had something like this if i´m correct in one of their last cars on their front suspension ? I´m not absolutely sure but it was doing away with bellcranks if I remember correctly..
Í don´t think it could be forbidden every f1 car has hydraulic component in their suspension do they?

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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It would weigh a ton. And wouldn't give any advantages

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

xpensive
xpensive
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Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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I wouldn't be so dead certain about that Tim, areas, volumes and pressures involved could be rather small.

- Imagine the radial load on each corner being 5000 N, with a 30 degree pushrod actuator we have 10 kN over a
let's say a 40 mm piston, that's just 80 Bar, which makes for thin-walled cylinders and tubings.

- A 40 mm plunge travelling 40 mm is no more than 50cc, or 40 grams of hydraulic oil.

- One meter of 12 mm Alu tubing, including medium, passing a damping orifice, to an accumulator is just about 0.2 kg.

- The spring accumulator, with a gas volume pre-set to a certain pressure is the trick of course, still working on that.

Any ideas there marcush, jumbo or you guys from the damper thread?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
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Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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How much would changes in heat from compression of the fluid and other heat factors affect performance?

Could something similar to brake fade happen, changing the ride quality?
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
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Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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I'm skeptical of what advantage it would offer passively... but the Williams active suspension used this concept, no?

Then again there's the Kinetic suspension system which I suppose is somewhat similar.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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747heavy
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Joined: 06 Jul 2010, 21:45

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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Hi X
Did you have something like this in mind?
http://www.carbibles.com/docs/racecar.pdf
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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xpensive wrote:I wouldn't be so dead certain about that Tim, areas, volumes and pressures involved could be rather small.

- Imagine the radial load on each corner being 5000 N, with a 30 degree pushrod actuator we have 10 kN over a
let's say a 40 mm piston, that's just 80 Bar, which makes for thin-walled cylinders and tubings.

- A 40 mm plunge travelling 40 mm is no more than 50cc, or 40 grams of hydraulic oil.

- One meter of 12 mm Alu tubing, including medium, passing a damping orifice, to an accumulator is just about 0.2 kg.

- The spring accumulator, with a gas volume pre-set to a certain pressure is the trick of course, still working on that.

Any ideas there marcush, jumbo or you guys from the damper thread?
I know there are some CF accumulators around so again weight savings galore ..And i got qui´te a bit of experience with Issigonis Whyskeysoda suspension and I swear it worked VERY good on the later Austin Metro based suspension units.(rover 1xxseries)These Hydrolastic units were made from steelstampings with elastomer bladders inside and did not really weigh much more than the original donut type suspension ..
Citroen used your idea reliably on everything they produced in the 70s and 80s (DS,GS etc..) and Creuat Suspension did even come as far as LeMans prequaly with a hydraulic suspension ...with Racing for Holland Dome.Unfortunatelly that one seemed to come from a Forklift type environment so maybe a bit oversized.

edit: 747 h beat me to it... =D>

http://www.creuat.com/

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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@Gib; My thinking was a gas-filled accumulator doing the spring action, as the hydraulic medium is incompressible, but your point have crossed my mind.

@ JT; The way I figured Williams, as well as other active systems, it was hydrulically stiff, pressure- and volume-wise controlled be solenoid operated proportional valves?

@jumbo; Something like that, there goes my nobel-prize ambitions I guess...

@marcush; Im not sure if Citroen used an incompressible fluid as a conveyor of force only, did they?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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Image

Schematics of the citroen /rover hydragas suspension system .I had thought the original Ds had a hydraulic suspension as well but it seems it was only used for adjusting the rideheight .so the spring still was directly connected to the hub.

http://www.ctgltd.co.uk/page/hydraulicaccumulators/47

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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There you go marcush, though the animation reminds of quite a different sort of activity than sitting in front of my lap-top in Trondheim chatting with you lot, but what if you down-size the hydraulic piston to bring the pressure up, draw a thin walled tube through an orifice to below the CG and place your accumulastor there, which was my humble thinking?

Come to think of it, did Ligier try the Citroen concept in F1 in the early 90s?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

tok-tokkie
tok-tokkie
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Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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I appreciate that your point is that gas springs can be lighter and the mass can be positioned more favourably. However gas springs are, in fact, not as easily tuned as I had expected. I had thought that pneumatic suspension was a really versatile system where, simply by changing the gas pressure, you could easily tailor the spring rate to whatever suited you. I read the following quite long extract in ‘Motorcycle handling and Chassis Design, the art and science.’ by Tony Foale. He too had been an enthusiast of the system until he built a bike using Fournales gas spring units.
To complete our survey of spring materials we must consider air or gas, which automatically provides a progressive rate. This can easily be demonstrated with a bicycle tyre pump. First extend the pump then cover the outlet with your finger to seal it, and compress the pump. You will find that the initial movement generates little resistance but as the movement increases the required force increases very rapidly. The load supported by a pneumatic unit depends on its internal pressure, which in turn depends on the initial static pressure and internal volume. This pressure is inversely proportional to the volume. i.e. If the internal volume is halved then the pressure doubles and the unit will be supporting twice the initial load. This relationship between pressure and volume is known as "BOYLE'S LAW".

The extent of the progression in rate is determined by the compression ratio of the unit (i.e. the ratio of the gas volume at the two extremes of travel). Fig 6.3 shows this variation between two units that start off by supporting the same load. Apart from this progressive rate, air shocks have the advantage of easy adjustment to compensate for different loads on the bike. If a passenger and luggage for a trip, doubles the load on the back end, then just double the initial gas pressure. Then at every point in the suspension travel the load supported will double and the rate will be double. This gives perfect spring compensation for the increase in load. Of course to achieve perfect compensation we would also need to double the damping.

The preload/ride-height adjustment found on normal coil spring units, does not have any effect on the spring rate, only on the initial load capacity. Such suspension will show an increased tendency to bottom out when heavily laden, unlike the adjustable gas shock.

However, despite this adjustability the pneumatic unit can be at a severe disadvantage when it comes to tuning the unit for a particular application or to suit a particular rider's needs. For example, if the rider determines that for his use a softer spring rate would be desirable, then with a coil-over shock he need only obtain and fit an appropriate softer spring. On the other hand, the man with the gas unit is in a bit of trouble. His first thought may be to simply release some gas. But, as a given pressure is needed in the unit to support the static weight of the machine, all that happens is that the ride height is reduced to a level which compresses the gas back up to the required pressure. However, at this new ride height the volume in the unit will have been reduced and hence the spring rate at this position will in fact be higher, so not only has the ride height and hence available wheel travel been reduced but the rate has been increased too. If he took the opposite approach and added some gas, then the rate might well be decreased as desired but ride height will be increased. If too much gas is added then the preload may become so high that a bump is needed to even begin to compress the suspension, so negating the desired effect. Other than buying another unit with different characteristics, there is little that can be done. Some units allow for the addition or removal of small quantities of oil, this alters the internal volume and hence the effective spring rate, but the degree of progression will be changed also, because the compression ratio will have been altered.

If a suitable setting cannot be obtained, then the only option is to get out the welding torch and change the leverage ratio. (This is not applicable to telescopic front forks, but these are not usually supplied as totally pneumatic.) For example, suppose that we move the suspension mount on the swing arm from the wheel spindle area to half way along,assuming that the frame mounting was moved also to compensate, the leverage on the suspension unit will now have been doubled. i.e. the static load on the unit needed to just support the weight of the bike will be twice the previous value. To achieve this the pressure in the unit will also need to be doubled, which in turn will increase the rate by a factor of two. The change of leverage will also have the effect of halving the movement of the unit compared to the wheel displacement. Now, the reduced movement and the increased rate of the unit combine to give the effect of halving the wheel rate, and the degree of progression will remain the same in terms of unit movement. But as the wheel will now move through twice the range as before we may be in trouble with not being able to accommodate this increase. Another problem with this approach is that although the increased pressure in the unit increased its spring rate it did nothing to increase the damping rate, which as a result will now be too small, assuming that it was OK. previously.

In my experience, most complaints levelled at after-market gas shocks are due to the rider's expectations of the adjustability benefits being raised excessively by the manufacturer's advertising hype. Once a suitable unit is matched to a particular application, then the ability to perfectly compensate for load differences by changing the pressure is a valuable benefit, although, unless the unit also has adjustable damping, that cannot be optimum throughout the full range of loading conditions. Do not expect to match any gas shock to your bike just by changing the pressure, it doesn't work like that.

To provide easy load compensation for large touring machines the American firm, S&W, used to offer air shocks with an on-board air-compressor. It was a simple matter of pumping the bike back up to the desired ride height after the addition of a passenger or heavy luggage.

autogyro
autogyro
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Joined: 04 Oct 2009, 15:03

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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Tony Foale was involved with project 425, a landspeed record motorcycle designed by Geof Garside and considered by Lotus. I did the transmission, a 25 speed bevel epicyclic auto, it was to use a BMW FI turbo engine.
Tony is famous for his hub center steering which was to be fitted to the 425, along with gyro stabalized hub spindles and aero fins.

I discused hydramatic suspension with him at that time. We had been using modified versions of the system in Mini race rally and hot rod cars along with a clutchflite transverse automatic AP gearbox (the first) with help from Leyland.
We also did a road prototype.

The hydramatic system showed lots of promise and it was considered by Lotus for F1 use. Of course the Lotus development ended with fully active suspension for ground effects with tunnels and skirts and then twin chassis'. Followed shortly after by a ban and the death of chunky. A sad loss. IMO F1 has come little distance since.

We were getting close to an improved mini suspension to the rubber cone 'dry' type and the main problem was 'as already said', difficulty in changing the spring rate. Strange as it may seem (and to re-enforce my limited ability with suspension compared to others on here), the dry cone suspension was easily adjusted simply by drilling holes in the cones. At least within the needed narrow range.

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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xpensive wrote:Come to think of it, did Ligier try the Citroen concept in F1 in the early 90s?
Mid '80s actually.
They had self-levelling hydro suspension on JS21 @1983
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/606/ ... -JS21.html

But why you wondered about that?
What advantages you seek?

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747heavy
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Re: A hydraulic suspension system?

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the Tyrell, Marcus has mentioned, is 023 and the system was called "HydroLink".
They made quite a dance about it, but droped it later in the season, as it did
not showed the advantages on track, the system should theoretical have.

As with other such systems, the aim was/is to control the main chassis modes
independet from each other.
Last edited by 747heavy on 21 Nov 2010, 04:55, edited 1 time in total.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci