Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Problem

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Richard James
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Wow, turn my back for a few days and the forum goes nuts :D

The day job has been a little busy this week, hence the lack of time on the forums.

Machin; I absolutely lovew your idea re; G forces, a real left field approach. Excellent

I will have to get stuck into all of your posts over this weekend, so I'll be back....

Rich

Tamburello
Tamburello
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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rifrafs2kees wrote:To me, the best way forward is to limit certain resources that the cars need to run, not the actual output figures. I would really like to see a limitation on the inputs.

For example:
Specify a set amount of fuel to be used per race distance. Let the competitors decide the best way to use that fuel...it's their business to decide whether to have all the necessary fuel on board or refuel.
I don't think any team will go for any other strategy than high grip tyres and refueling.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Tumbarello wrote:
rifrafs2kees wrote:To me, the best way forward is to limit certain resources that the cars need to run, not the actual output figures. I would really like to see a limitation on the inputs.

For example:
Specify a set amount of fuel to be used per race distance. Let the competitors decide the best way to use that fuel...it's their business to decide whether to have all the necessary fuel on board or refuel.
I don't think any team will go for any other strategy than high grip tyres and refueling.
Sure...except if you qualified infront and want to keep track position. Then the cars behind might decide to refuel and go with high grip tires in hopes of overtaking.

DaveW
DaveW
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Joined: 14 Apr 2009, 12:27

Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Quote from Luca di Montezemelo, according to Autosport:

"As for the rear wing, I hope we start the season with total clarity as regards the regulations," he said. "I am not worried about it, but our experience of 2009 still grates."

What still grates? The regulation interpretation exploited by Brawn GP & others. Why? Because Ferrari hadn't thought of it.

An example illustrating why "Divergent Governance" would never be accepted by F1 teams.

Belatti
Belatti
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007, 21:48
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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OOT, Sorry.

Dave, the history of Ferrari has always been to copy proven innovations and inventions, not to generate them.
"You need great passion, because everything you do with great pleasure, you do well." -Juan Manuel Fangio

"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication and competence." -Ayrton Senna

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machin
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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@DaveW: Your example shows why the current rules system is so bad. -unlike today's rules which set geometric limits which can always be interpretted differently (as in your Ferrari example), Richard's suggestion is to measure outputs e.g downforce (or cornering G-force in my refinement, ;-) ). It's up to the teams to decide how to generate that output the most efficiently... There are pretty much no rules to break! That's what's so great about it!
COMPETITION CAR ENGINEERING -Home of VIRTUAL STOPWATCH

lolzi
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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machin wrote:@DaveW: Your example shows why the current rules system is so bad. -unlike today's rules which set geometric limits which can always be interpretted differently (as in your Ferrari example), Richard's suggestion is to measure outputs e.g downforce (or cornering G-force in my refinement, ;-) ). It's up to the teams to decide how to generate that output the most efficiently... There are pretty much no rules to break! That's what's so great about it!
How would one go about governing cornering speeds? What about the always present "track evolution"? Wet races? Seems very hard not to break the rules, even if one tried not to.

DaveW
DaveW
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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machin wrote:@DaveW: Your example shows why the current rules system is so bad.
Machin: I wasn't trying to defend the current rule structure. In an earlier post I suggested that teams & sponsors found the current rule structure "safe", meaning low risk. I thought that L di M's outburst was an illustration of that thinking as, incidentally, is the FOTA agreement to fix longitudinal c.g. position for 2011...

I also believe that rules are rules, whether they attempt to limit performance directly or by defining the physical layout & dimensions of a vehicle. History shows that once rules have been written down, F1 teams will find ways to gain a performance advantage without contravening the letter (as opposed to the spirit) of those rules.

Hence, whilst I support the concept of "divergent governance" (I really do), I don't think it would work, & I can't imagine it would be acceptable to the current F1 community.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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lolzi wrote: How would one go about governing cornering speeds? What about the always present "track evolution"? Wet races? Seems very hard not to break the rules, even if one tried not to.
I think this is a pretty inherent problem with this type of governence. The problem with restricting outputs such as V and Ay is that they are such a complicated function of the inputs that the outputs simply arent static.

Like you said, A car with a given Ay capability on lap 1 will have a different Ay capability on lap 58. Also with the power to weight, weight changes during a race (and a season) and power is almost impossible to measure accurately and repeadtedly. Want a few more extra hp? Put your car on another dyno.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Maximum downforce figure.
Maximum fuel allowed.

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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maximum fuel would work but how on earth will you govern a maximum downforce allowence?

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Dont know Tim.
Ideas?

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Well I don't think its possible to measure/govern in a reasonable way.

Tim
Not the engineer at Force India

DaveW
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Re: Divergent Governance: A Solution to the Overtaking Probl

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Performance limits monitored by real time measurement are often difficult to implement reliably & almost impossible to police. In any case, the idea is a little absurd, if I may say so. That should become clear if I suggest that the most reliable & incorruptible performance measure is lap time. What would you think about about imposing a minimum lap time....?

Allowing a fixed quantity of energy for completing a race is a good idea, I think, although it would introduce some novel technical problems. I'm not sure that it would encourage diversity, however, or stimulate overtaking.

autogyro
autogyro
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DaveW wrote:Performance limits monitored by real time measurement are often difficult to implement reliably & almost impossible to police. In any case, the idea is a little absurd, if I may say so. That should become clear if I suggest that the most reliable & incorruptible performance measure is lap time. What would you think about about imposing a minimum lap time....?

Allowing a fixed quantity of energy for completing a race is a good idea, I think, although it would introduce some novel technical problems. I'm not sure that it would encourage diversity, however, or stimulate overtaking.
I cannot see any connection between limiting downforce with a maximum figure and a lap time limit.
F1 is not a race for the aero guys with the winner having the highest downforce.
This is what I think you mean Dave.