Becoming the next F1 designer

[polarboy]

I really dont want to put a dampner on anyone,s plans but f1 isnt the be all an end all like it was the teams are just too big now you end up a small cog in a very big machine
While i was at an f1 team last yr my friend who was contracting the same as me didnt go for a job that was handed to him on a plate,due to the fact that he didnt want to be designing brake ducts day in day out for the next 3 years !
Lot more fun an job satisfaction to be had in formula outside of f1

[MugenHonda]

There are many other motorsport series, for example Le mans, Touring cars and sports cars to get into. Also how about designing the engine side of motorsport?

I am doing a diploma in mechanical engineering and hoping to get into the degree in 2012.

[autogyro]

I hope you are taking a good look at KERS systems Hybrids and electric traction for the future.

[PlatinumZealot]

Yea now I noticed that there is a special module called automotive class A.
I just wonder what is the difference between automotive class A and the shape design. In principle it should be the same or at least very similar.
Something else I am wondering about is that it seems to be like there are some programmes used by all those people here on the forum that present their self made F1 cars and there are the CAD programmes like CATIA.
It seems like it would be easier to make such a car with one of those “graphical programmes” than with a real CAT programme. You say less than 1% of CAD users can use class A but here on the forum it seems like every schoolboy can make his own F1 car.

I think you are being too harsh. Even in those 3D and/or CAD programs not just any old "schoolboy" can model an F1-car much less any other object. (Lets not even talk about engineering the model, which takes physical realities into account).
Before I did mechanical engineer degree I started modeling 3d cars as a high school hobby in a crappy program called z-modeler. I think I was 16 years old and I was really into video games and I was putting the cars into games like "Grand theft Auto III" and "Need for speed." In those 3d programs you model using polygons and sometimes Non-Uniform-B-spline (NURBS) surfaces. It's almost like you want to mold clay but all you have is a mouse and a keyboard and you were working with vertices and control points. It wasn't a full on CAD program but It was not easy at all. I then later started CAD (autocad solidworks etc), which has it's challenges, some parts easier some parts more difficult than regular 3d programs (Maya and 3D studio). But what I am saying is it takes some level of talent to model a decent car surface.

Up to that point though, it is just an artistic design and not engineering design. An artist can do a good job or most times even better a job at modeling than an industrial designer. Most of the car models you see on this website are artistic designs. Just mere models with the physical world not taken into account; similar to the 3D models you see in video games and movies. Note that and Artist AND an industrial designer can both be proficient in these programs. Whether Grade A or Grade Z, it just depends on how much the artist/designer/engineer understands how surfaces work and the maths behind those surfaces. It's a talent. Whether born from an inclination to the graphic arts or engineering, the posters that post the cars in the forum are not just any numb nut school boys.

[PNSD]

mep makes a good point.

After my MSc, rather than F1 being my primary route (it will eventually!) I am hoping to get into aerodynamic consultancy work instead. Currently looking at how that could happen. Various things ive heard these last few months have put me off F1 as a graduate engineer.

[czt]

riff_raff:
I think what you try to say is what I initially thought.
Let's put it into a little example.
A vehicle manufacturer has some design work to be done. They ask an engineering office for a designer (instead of recruiting a own one , but thats a different story).
So they have to pay 100$/h for a class A designer and 50$/h for a normal CAT user but that’s not even close to the actual salary of the man. It is actually much lower. First the agency keeps 5% as you say, I think it’s even more like 9 or 10%.
Then the agency will also take part of the money for other expenses they have like buildings, wages of non designer, cars,...
Then most of the money is taken by the government for whatever reason.
Then you get an amount of money that is paid to the designer but here the government comes a second time to take something around 40% of the money.
In the end the designer gets some money that has little to do with the 100$/h that you stated in the beginning. I think some people got confused by this.

CATIA V5 is the CAD software used by most of the world's automotive OEM's. CATIA Generative Shape Design (GSD) is the base level surfacing module, and is not a Class A tool. CATIA V5 Class A tool is Vehicle Design/Styling & Class A.

Yea now I noticed that there is a special module called automotive class A.
I just wonder what is the difference between automotive class A and the shape design. In principle it should be the same or at least very similar.
Something else I am wondering about is that it seems to be like there are some programmes used by all those people here on the forum that present their self made F1 cars and there are the CAD programmes like CATIA.
It seems like it would be easier to make such a car with one of those “graphical programmes” than with a real CAT programme. You say less than 1% of CAD users can use class A but here on the forum it seems like every schoolboy can make his own F1 car.

I can well believe that a Class A guy can contract at $100 - top notch surfacing is a rare skill. Class A work is not generally done in Catia - specialist surfacing packages such as Icem Surf tend to be used, then the data imported into Catia/UG for the engineering to happen.

In general, the surfacing done in motorsport is competant and no more, as the requirements are for functional rather than aesthetic reasons - In Catia GSD is adequate for most needs.

As you say, every schoolboy can model their own f1 car using some of the software available out there. Unfortunately, the quality of what is produced is in most cases only suitable for use as a scheme, due to a combination of limitations in the software itself and often the inexperience of the user. Thats not to say that they are not worthy efforts as to model a vehicle like an f1 to such a level that it is representative is no small undertaking!

[mep]

I have no experience with those graphical 3d programmes how ever they are called. I just have experience with engineering CAD programmes like CATIA.
Until now I haven't seen anybody posting a good F1 car here made with CATIA or any other CAD programme but those graphical F1 cars keep popping up here.
I must admit some of them look really good and I know it would be hard to do them in CATIA and requires lots of time.
If they are done with physics in mind or not doesn’t matter. When somebody can make the shape he can also make them under real circumstances.
A user sent me this link, check the stuff there:
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/featured2col.php

I can't imagine it makes sense to do the things seen there with a CAD programme, if it even is possible. I am not speaking about the skins now just about the pure shapes.
So this are the reasons why I suspect it’s a lot easier to make these shapes with one of the graphical programmes. It’s also possible that those programmes are just better for doing shapes but much more demanding to handle. Feel free to enlighten me about the differences.

Regarding math:
For doing any shapes with a CAD programme you don't need any special math skills, I don’t know if you need them for those graphical programmes.

To add something to the topic:
When you choose your job you should know if you really like the thing you are doing there.
Sounds easy but is very hard depending from the job you are going to learn. For some jobs its quite predictable what you have to do later. As example If you learn CNC operator you will end up standing the whole day in front of a machine. In best case you get a desk job making just the programmes. Honestly all options are boring in my opinion even when I like the process itself.
If you study engineering its not predictable how your average working day will look like. There are just to many different possibilities. Doing just 100% CAD work is something you should not be keen on. That’s something I currently have and I am bored by it.

[autogyro]

I feel for modern engineers especialy those in F1.
The whole process is broken up into specialised areas that create boredom and the wages are not usualy anywhere near as good as in other industry.

I was very fortunate, in my day I had the opertunity to design build, develop and race cars on budgets that would be laughed at today.

However, It was still not a good business to be in if you wanted to get rich.

I doubt many of those capable actualy reach the high money areas of F1 design, there are much easier ways to earn a living.

[Jersey Tom]

Some engineering groups are very narrow and silo'd... others are still very diverse, believe me.

[PlatinumZealot]

An engineer can be as rich as he wants to be.. just has to apply his engineering skills to making money of the masses. You might have to do something out field though, like building go fast boats and weapons for drug lords if you know what I mean

[ashf1mclaren]

i can understand what everyone's points are, there are a few i would like to clear up first though,
jersey tom: sorry if i sounded a bit like " Adrian newey doesn't believe in cad" i ment to say he doesn't personally use it, he prefers to draw pencil to paper.

polarboy: i can see your point there are what sound boring jobs but you cannot expect to arrive at the top, maybe designing brake ducts could lead to design the front wing and so on, if i where him i would have gone for it, but i am some what of a workaholic.

mugenhonda: i have been thinking the same thing for a while, jumping in to f1 is a huge task to burden yourself with also the experience factor is low, i am very interested in le mans LMP1,2 and GT classes i very much like the style of racing, but i feel f1 is the end goal, this idea is similar to what Ross brawn did sports cars then to f1 in his motor sport career.

PNSD: similar to polarboy gaining experience and valuable information that can help you get into f1 teams in the future.

[riff_raff]

ashf1mclaren,

While doing engineering work in F1 sounds really glamorous and exciting, the reality is that working in an F1 engineering environment is less demanding than working in aerospace, in many respects. The main thing that makes the F1 environment such a challenge is the very short design cycle times. But with regards to outright performance in structures, materials, aerodynamics, controls, dynamics, reliability, etc., aerospace engineering is far more demanding.

Over 25 years I've worked in racing, aerospace and the automotive industry. The work that I enjoyed the most (and paid the best) was in aerospace.

riff_raff

[Jersey Tom]

Interesting perspective, riff_raff. Good points though. I liked working in aerospace when I was doing undergrad. Challenging and fun, particularly on the fabrication side.

And if you really want a challenge in materials and structural analysis, join a tire company. Haha!

[speedsense]

Interesting perspective, riff_raff. Good points though. I liked working in aerospace when I was doing undergrad. Challenging and fun, particularly on the fabrication side.

And if you really want a challenge in materials and structural analysis, join a tire company. Haha!

Aren't the compound engineers, the "rocket scientists" of the auto industry?

[speedsense]

I really dont want to put a dampner on anyone,s plans but f1 isnt the be all an end all like it was the teams are just too big now you end up a small cog in a very big machine
While i was at an f1 team last yr my friend who was contracting the same as me didnt go for a job that was handed to him on a plate,due to the fact that he didnt want to be designing brake ducts day in day out for the next 3 years !
Lot more fun an job satisfaction to be had in formula outside of f1

Though having F1 experience on your resume, is worth a lot working in other types of racing.