2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[xpensive]

The way I see this happening, if taken seiously, is that you include the MGU in the braking and accelleration mechanism so that you can store, with input powers far more that 160 kW, before each corner and release it immediatly after the same corner to aid accelleration, which will limit demand of storage capacity needed.

But can today's batteries handle that, say 1 MJ in within two or three seconds and release within another two or three?

[WhiteBlue]

The way I see this happening, if taken seiously, is that you include the MGU in the braking and accelleration mechanism so that you can store, with input powers far more that 160 kW, before each corner and release it immediatly after the same corner to aid accelleration, which will limit demand of storage capacity needed.

In other words dual torque mode!

But can today's batteries handle that, say 1 MJ in within two or three seconds and release within another two or three?

Probably not if you go for the minimum capacity. I think you would have to install something between 11 and 85 kg. The question is how much.

[xpensive]

Let's get things straight WB, if I want to collect 1 MJ before this one corner witin two seconds, I need 500 kW of deccellaration power, afterwitch I have to store it for another two seconds, then let it loose again, can this be done physically?

[WhiteBlue]

Let's get things straight WB, if I want to collect 1 MJ before this one corner witin two seconds, I need 500 kW of deccellaration power, afterwitch I have to store it for another two seconds, then let it loose again, can this be done physically?

I'm not sure your basic figures are correct. Can we deduct the requirements for a 4 MJ/lap KERS energy budget in more detail please!

[autogyro]

Far better to use it directly to drive an induction compressor sucking air from under the car and feeding it to a blown flap on the rear wing, therebye keeping the turbo lag at zero for when the compressor is needed to boost the ic.
That way you dont need nearly as much storage or such a rapid charge time.
The Compressor can have a built in flywheel in a vacuum to store energy above that needed to drive the actual compressor and release it at a sensible charge rate to store.
Any excess boost pressure can be prevented by loading the flywheel when full power is applied, therebye storing energy and feeding this to storage at a sensible rate again.

Should work rather well in a road hybrid as well.

[xpensive]

I can certainly do the maths for you, esteemed stalwart of this great forum;

4 MJ or 4000 kWs equals "braking power" times seconds. If you stick with 160 kW, that means 25 sec of braking time.

I doubt you spend that time on the brakes over one lap, as I suggest 10 s, means that I need 400 kW of braking power.

[WhiteBlue]

Far better to use it directly to drive an induction compressor sucking air from under the car and feeding it to a blown flap on the rear wing, therebye keeping the turbo lag at zero for when the compressor is needed to boost the ic.

I'm confused about the system you are proposing here. Can you please elaborate on such a system's components and how they would work?

The Compressor can have a built in flywheel in a vacuum to store energy above that needed to drive the actual compressor and release it at a sensible charge rate to store.

So you would bolt an air compressor together with a flywheel energy storage facility. How would you synchronize the compressor rpms with the flywheel rpms?

Any excess boost pressure can be prevented by loading the flywheel when full power is applied, therebye storing energy and feeding this to storage at a sensible rate again.

This sounds like an impossible task for a system that is comprised from a mechanical flywheel and an air compressor. Did you leave out some system components that are needed for this task?

[WhiteBlue]

4 MJ or 4000 kWs equals "braking power" times seconds. If you stick with 160 kW, that means 25 sec of braking time. I doubt you spend that time on the brakes over one lap, as I suggest 10 s, means that I need 400 kW of braking power.

We have to discriminate between peak breaking power and average breaking power. There are many different corners in F1. I seem to recall that we agreed on a different set of breaking times for one typical F1 lap. I will have a look for our assumptions in one of the old threads.

[flynfrog]

i think they layout looks something like this

[tok-tokkie]

Thanks Machin. Looking at it from an energy point of view made it hang together very clearly. Especially when you put in the KE equation which so neatly shows why accelerating at high speed is difficult. I had always thought it was just the velocity squared air resistance effect nearing the power output of the engine.

--------------------
I am also interested in how KERS power is to be harvested, stored and applied. Small storage and short term harvesting & application is what I expect. Why I think an electrical component to the engine charging system can be part of it. Or does it have to be turbo?

[WhiteBlue]

I think that this is a good basis for figures that should be updated

Previously we have discovered that an F1 car typically spends 15-17% of the lap on the brakes. At 75 s lap time it would be 12 s. So the average regeneration power would be 192 kW. Electric MGUs can be significantly overloaded if you give them enough time to cool down in between.

I see nothing wrong with a 1.8 overload factor at a 16% generator working percentage only. When they are used in motor mode they also get utilized only to a fraction of the nominal load (40%). If you work out the compound load factor (56%) you will see that you have plenty of head room to overload in recovery. Naturally the kind of overloading we are talking here requires a very efficient cooling of both MGUs and the inverters. You have to use water cooling to achieve that.

I conclude that an electric rating of 160 kW will be sufficient to do that job. That is exactly what Porsche will be using. If we stick with the over loading and check our data we get the following figures:

Average regeneration power: 192 kW
Nominal MGU power: 160 kW
Regeneration over load factor: 1.8
Peak regeneration power: 288 kW
Average electric motor power: 77 kW
Compound effective load factor: 0.65

We should agree to 12 s for the typical breaking time per lap. The target should be 4 MJ/lap harvested. We need to consider heavy overload factors for the MGUs and inverters depending of load factors. This is what I can extract from the existing AWKERS thread. So we would have 333 kW average brake power. The load factor would be 12s/80s=15% for breaking. If we consider 75% of the lap timer for feeding the power back we get 67 kW electric power augmentation. That would not make a significant difference to the thermal load of the MGU's and inverters. We can simply neglect it in the figures.

What is certainly more interesting is the maximum power the system needs to absorb. I would assume that the maximum power does not exceed the average power significantly. When we did the 2.3MJ figures it was plausible that the MGUs could always harvest with the average collection rate. So for a first shot lets assume that max power is 333 kW and nominal power of the system would be 170 kW with an overload factor of 1.95.

[autogyro]

Electricly/mechanicaly charged flywheel/compressor capable of being overdriven electricaly above the turbo mechanical drive.
Variable angle blades in both turbine and compressor.
The flywheel will store energy from either the turbo turbine above required ic boost rpm and also from the braking MGs uder braking to maintain compressor rpm (zero lag) and charge the excess to the flywheel electricaly.
The flywheel then feeds what ever battery storage deemed neccessary.

Under braking the compressor vanes will give sufficient mass airflow from under the car to feed a wing blown flap.
Under ic full power the compressor blades will reduce boost to required limits without drawing air from under the car or feeding the wing flap, the excess turbo torque being used to charge the flywheel giving no need for a waste gate.
On overrun the turbine blades will be altered to make most use of exhaust gas flow, fuel and engine temperature.

[ringo]

... I think using energy to explain it is worth a try at least!

Look here man, you are confused, and clearly not confident in what you are putting across. I am done with that a long time ago. Simple little physics that you are using cannot explain what is taking place. The system is accelerating, and the acceleration isn't even linear or constant, so it's above anything that you are going to post.
What you pose about conservation of energy puts you on the right track, but you veered off after that.

Try this on for size,: Torque = I * alpha, alpha being angular acceleration, I for for a disk like a wheel or gear is 1/2 mass x radius squared. ok? that's not going to change.

This is how the energy comes in:

K.E. = 1/2 * I * angualar velocity squared.

differentiating with respect to time would give you:

Torque x angular velocity = power.

With that said, multiple gears afford flexibility in acceleration becuase they can manipulate the torque, regardless of the characteristics of the power source.


This is simple theory. You increase torque you increase acceleration, that's the idea behind the gearbox. The power characteristics doesn't matter; constant power or not.
I can't help you any more.

You can't tell me anything new about gearbox design, let's just leave it at that.

[WhiteBlue]

Electricly/mechanicaly charged flywheel/compressor capable of being overdriven electricaly above the turbo mechanical drive. Variable angle blades in both turbine and compressor.

Lets be more precise in the system definition!

1. There is no such thing as an exhaust turbine or charging compressor with variable blade geometry of the moving elements. The only variable parts that I know of are the static vanes that direct the flow to the turbine or compressor blades.

2. I'm still completely unable to figure out what kind of system you envision with this electric flywheel/compressor combination. Please define the elements of the system! Do you start with a one shaft turbocharger that has an electric MGU on the same shaft and is connected to a flywheel as well? This is like pulling teeth!

[autogyro]

Thanks for that ringo.
I wonder if I might include your post when next time I am confronted with the ongoing argument from the EV brigade, who insist on saying a multi stepped gearbox will not improve the performance and efficiency of an EV.